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Is There Anything Good About Men?

psy.fsu.edu

81–90 of 237 posts

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#81
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some good points, but the parts about the British Empire are off. I'd strongly recommend "Heaven's Command: An Imperial Progress" by Jan Morris for a piece that looks at all the good and bad that the British Empire did under Victoria. To make a long story really short, the British did ridiculous amounts of good in their colonies. For instance, eliminating the Thugee strangling cult: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thugg…

The British are given too much credit for things they never did. As for doing good in India, even under the Mughal empire, India is estimated to have a share of 30% of world GDP until the 18th century. When the British left in 1947, that share was less than 1%. The Brits de-industrialized India, used Indian raw materials and taxes to fuel their own industrial revolution and used India as a captive market to hawk thei…

>As for doing good in India, even under the Mughal empire, India is estimated to have a share of 30% of world GDP until the 18th century.

Wiki doesn't agree:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Raj#Technological_and_e...

>India's per capita GDP decreased from $550 in 1700 to $520 by 1857, although it had increased to $618 by 1947

I'm not sure whose dollars those are... but it certainly doesn't sound like the Mughal empire ever controlled anything remotely approaching 30% of world GDP. Here's how the British won India, for reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Plassey

750 European soldiers and 2100 sepoys defeating 53000 Indians speaks volumes about the latter's ability to organize.

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#82
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All heritable behaviors that lead to men or women not reproducing don't stay in a population very long. It's not so much slave to genes as it's a boundary condition. That doesn't take away from your daily experience as a human. You can still do whatever you want, day to day, year to year, not giving much thought of your genetic viability and still be a happy, healthy human being. Just because you know how a rainbow w…

>All heritable behaviors that lead to men or women not reproducing don't stay in a population very long I'm not sure about this. What I mean is that I can clearly see the logic here, but I'd love to see a discussion for instance on the continual existence of evolutionary destructive traits such as homosexuality, which by all accounts has not only been around for a great deal of human existence, but also other species…

There are plenty of homosexuals with sons and daughters.

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#83
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All heritable behaviors that lead to men or women not reproducing don't stay in a population very long. It's not so much slave to genes as it's a boundary condition. That doesn't take away from your daily experience as a human. You can still do whatever you want, day to day, year to year, not giving much thought of your genetic viability and still be a happy, healthy human being. Just because you know how a rainbow w…

>All heritable behaviors that lead to men or women not reproducing don't stay in a population very long I'm not sure about this. What I mean is that I can clearly see the logic here, but I'd love to see a discussion for instance on the continual existence of evolutionary destructive traits such as homosexuality, which by all accounts has not only been around for a great deal of human existence, but also other species…

It's possible perhaps that there are evolutionary paths that, although dead-ends, are easily mutated into and thus always present in a species...

The cornucopia of debilitating mental illnesses that we tend to suffer from implies that this is almost certainly the case, and there are a lot of things that go into this.

Regarding traits like homosexuality, it's likely that the genetic "cause" ends up so widespread because the possession of it (or of a close precursor) is not necessarily that devastating to reproductive success, and may even be beneficial when it's not expressed as homosexuality. For instance, it's pretty well established at this point that whatever predisposes people to homosexuality genetically is not the whole story, a lot of it has to do with the embryonic environment, upbringing, and possibly sheer chance, so if there are other beneficial things about that mutation (or set of mutations), then as long as they outweigh the probability that homosexuality is expressed and prevents procreation, the gene stays around.

There's a rule of thumb, "one mutation, one death", which implies that no matter how deleterious a mutation is, on average, it will cause one death (or more accurately in this case, one failure to reproduce) when it happens. Roughly speaking, this is because if it's a very mildly deleterious mutation, it will spread quite far through the population before there's enough evolutionary pressure to stamp it out, and if it's a really bad one, it will kill off the first person to have it before it spreads at all. This can be influenced by social factors, as well, i.e. eyesight problems are rectified by our building glasses, but that just reduces evolutionary pressure against bad eyesight, so we're letting it spread its (much lower) fitness penalty throughout the population.

There's an element there that I'm glossing over, which is that in a population, you have to consider the probability of recreating the deleterious mutation, too - for instance, if a trait depends on a combination of a few mutations to be present, then depending on the number and prevalence of those mutated alleles in the population, the stable percentage of people displaying that trait will change.

It may just be the case that for various social reasons, predisposition to homosexuality has not been responsible for enough of a decrease in reproduction to counterbalance the probability of randomly mixing genes in just the right way to recreate it "from scratch." This could be particularly likely if some of the involved genes are useful by themselves in other situations, and homosexuality is hitchhiking on the backs of those beneficial mutations.

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the article? The author gives several examples that completely counter your underlying argument. It isn't about ability, it's about motivation.

Again, so if women lack those motivations, where did feminism come from?

Feminism arose for the same reasons that any social movement arises: a part of society feels that they are being unfairly treated as second-class citizens. What exactly does it mean to be a second-class citizen? Whether it is getting paid less, or not having the same job opportunities, in the end it boils down to this: a second-class citizen feels that they are not given the same honor and dignity as a normal citizen.

So feminism arose because a significant amount of women believed that they did not have the honor and dignity that they deserved. So why did they not have honor and dignity? Had it always been this way in American society? It had not always been this way in American society. But the industrial revolution led to changes in society, and those changes changed the cultural values of American society. Cultural values such as what kind of person is honorable and dignified.

People with outlandish amounts of wealth came to be honorable and dignified. Eccentric/genius/rich/crazy type people became honorable and dignified. It was "cool" to be rich, to own a big oil company, to do ridiculous things with your wealth, to invent cool gadgets (and to a lesser extent, research - Einstein became famous, as did Edison, Tesla, etc).

As American culture shifted its values, people who did not take outlandish risks or were not rich, lost their honor and dignity. The group that was most affected throughout all parts of society were women, who tended not to take risks or behave in outlandish ways, and who tended to be stay-at-home moms and grandmothers.

And when the cultural values changed, not only did women perceive themselves as being "stuck" in less honorable positions because of their gender - but men began to think the same about women. Men also began to think that, "Well, a woman stays in her house all day and cooks and looks after kids and is a wife, well then she must be looked down upon as a second-class citizen because she doesn't get the same honor and dignity and respect."

When all of society - men and women - began to look at women as being in less dignified positions and jobs, not because they were women, but because of what they did (and they did what they did because they were women - they bear children), then women reacted to that and the feminist movement was born.

Unfortunately, the feminist movement has not helped the situation, because society still values the rich, powerful, eccentric, outlandish risk-taking person more than a person who just does his or her job in a quiet but fulfilling manner. As a result, the feminist movement has tended to push women into behaving like men, and women are still not satisfied, and the resulting changes in society have left men feeling unhappy to the point where men feel that they are second-class citizens. Until American societies returns the dignity back to women for being women - not for trying to be like men - this problem will persist.

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#86
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's very little actual substance there to invalidate, and I did discuss some of issues. His analysis of women's creativity is wrong, and is his talk about relative sex drives is spurious. I also think it's a huge mistake to label cultures who have persisted by making over half their population miserable (women and low-status men) as "successful". If you wanted me to take it apart line-by-line you will have to be…

One of the problems in Western cultures is that being a CEO, a President, a rockstar, an astronaut, etc is more highly valued than say, being a mother. This is why many Western women feel that being a mother with young kids and staying at home is not fulfilling their lives - because the cultural messages tell them that being a stay-at-home mom is an unglamarous job. You will find that not all cultures are like this -…

Why aren't we talking about the 1950's? If you're correct, that the problem is a lack of glamour, then the 50's should not have been a problem. Motherhood was the ultimate glamorous profession for a woman in those days. Sure, you can go to college, but there's no sense doing anything with it when you could get married. The ideal was a beautiful, spotless house in the suburbs, beautiful and well-behaved children, a great and successful husband. Dress up every day, makeup, hair, a pretty dress, pearls even. Fingers in every community organization: church, PTA, charities. You get to host parties, lots of parties. The way we talk about 50's homemaking today is a lot different from the way we talked about it then.

Which cultures in which women are homemakers only, have stayed without change to gender roles for millenia? When I think of cultures that have stayed mostly unchanged, I think of the ones where women are contributing significantly to survival. Hunter-gatherer societies where men hunt and women gather. In most HG societies plant foods make up a large portion of the food; women's work is essential. And a step beyond that, societies where men hunt and women tend gardens or farms. Or where men and women farm and ranch together. Yes, women also tend to take care of the children in these societies. But modern-day me still has to do dishes and laundry; that doesn't preclude me from doing other things.

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#87

The problem with this essay is that is paints us as slaves to our genes. Since Dawkins became fashionable, it is now normal to portray human beings as nothing more than meat-based mechanisms for storing and transporting DNA. This idea is dangerously embedded in society now, and it risks creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of barbarism. What possible motivation does one have for behaving in a manner other than that of…

>Since Dawkins became fashionable

I am curious why people keep taking this attitude to Dawkins. And Dawkins himself was also curious why people had this reaction to his books. In his 1976 book The Selfish Gene, he says:

"We can rise above our genes, indeed, we do every time we use contraceptives."

As he makes clear, several times, in the book, our evolution allows a range of behavior that allows for more than simplistic game-theory calculations.

Personally, there were 2 main things that I got from The Selfish Gene:

1.) sometimes simple experiments, with simple motivations, lead to surprising results (or sometimes game theory models have surprising conclusions). For instance, the story of the 2 pigs was surprising -- they had to push a lever on one end of the pen to get a reward at the other end of the pen, and it turned out that it was the dominant pig who had to do all the work whereas the submissive pig got to eat most of the food.

2.) evolution is too slow to react to fast changing circumstances, so behavior was "invented" to allow creatures to quickly adapt to circumstances. The word "behavior" in this sense, is meant to suggest a range of possible actions that a creature can change without having to change its genes. Dawkins devotes a lot of time to this idea, and it seems to me this idea goes directly against the interpretation that so many people want to ascribe to Dawkins: "it risks creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of barbarism".

I suspect that a lot of people who criticize Dawkins have never actually read Dawkins.

This sentence deserves special criticism:

"How is it even possible to behave in a non-animalistic manner once you have internalised these ideas?"

Here the word "animalistic" is being used to suggest a failure of morality. There is history behind this usage, which I don't have time to get into. For now, I'll simply point out that humans are part of the animal branch of life, and therefore all human behavior is animalistic by definition.

The above sentence suggests that being an animal leads to immoral behavior. Frans B. M. de Waal has been especially good about undermining this idea:

http://www.amazon.com/Good-Natured-Origins-Humans-Animals/dp...

Good Natured: The Origins of Right and Wrong in Humans and Other Animals

Kindness is also a product of evolution. Our sense of decency is also a product of evolution. To be clear about this, all human behavior has been facilitated by evolution. Our genes do not control us in a rigid and deterministic way, but our genes do establish perhaps the outer limits of the possible for us. It might be best to use the word "facilitate" when describing the effect of evolution on our behavior.

When Saint Francis of Assisi gave all of his possessions to the poor, his actions were facilitated by evolution.

When Hitler ordered 6 million Jews killed, his actions were facilitated by evolution.

When marine Jason Dunham decided to sacrifice his life to save his fellow soldiers, by diving on top of a hand grenade, his actions were facilitated by evolution.

When Susan Leigh Vaughan Smith killed her 2 children, her actions were facilitated by evolution.

When Adrienne Rich decided to write a book denouncing male-dominated family life, and when she came out as a lesbian, her actions were facilitated by evolution.

When George F. Gilder wrote a book denouncing feminism, his actions were facilitated by evolution.

What we are capable of has been facilitated by our history so far, all 4 billion years of it. This includes all behavior, including what some might regard as "good" and some might regard as "bad". But, while keeping all this in mind, it is also important to realize that we are still evolving today, still inventing the new, day by day. Possibly the pace is so slow that it is hard to see, but still, evolution is still happening, for every species on the planet, including humans. If we could get in a time machine and skip 100,000 years in the future, we would probably note the emergence of many new behaviors in the human line.

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#88

The problem with this essay is that is paints us as slaves to our genes. Since Dawkins became fashionable, it is now normal to portray human beings as nothing more than meat-based mechanisms for storing and transporting DNA. This idea is dangerously embedded in society now, and it risks creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of barbarism. What possible motivation does one have for behaving in a manner other than that of…

>What possible motivation does one have for behaving in a manner other than that of an animal,

well, actually most of "behaving like an animal" is only done by humans and such behavior can't be found in the animal kingdom. Calling it "like an animal" is a typical hypocrisy of humans.

>human beings as nothing more than meat-based mechanisms for storing and transporting DNA.

yes, like any lifeforms we know.

>This idea is dangerously embedded in society now, and it risks creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of barbarism.

Blaming society, ideas, whatever ... instead of taking personal responsibility is a human species trait that, i think, will either have to disappear or it will take the human race down (it wasn't that important before, when Mother Nature held your personally responsible for your actions, yet with technological growth and power wielded by individuals and small groups over highly organized masses of humans it becomes an extremely dangerous trait - i think the 20th century was a nice preview of the future and the WW III is going to be an interesting exercise).

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#89

The problem with this essay is that is paints us as slaves to our genes. Since Dawkins became fashionable, it is now normal to portray human beings as nothing more than meat-based mechanisms for storing and transporting DNA. This idea is dangerously embedded in society now, and it risks creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of barbarism. What possible motivation does one have for behaving in a manner other than that of…

On an entirely separate note, all this talk of inter-gender differences is useless without some consideration of their scale relative to intra-gender differences.

But isn't that exactly what the author is suggesting? That the within-group variance tends to be higher in men than in women, even if the differences in averages between the groups are not significant?

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#90
post #76

What I dislike about these kinds of "evolutionary" arguments is that they tend to assume that the differences between the genders are genetic, even when there's no evidence for that. Even as late as the Victorian ages, several of the traits we now think of as immutable part of being male or female were swapped around. For the Victorians, blue was for girls and pink was for boys, and all women had the potential to bec…

I didn't read it that way. I think he was speaking more to the systems that have evolved around us. He tried to fit a theory to the data of observations in behavioral differences in men and women. I don't think it's relevant to him if those differences are genetic. It reminds me of the theme for 'The Wire.' Systems of culture and how they affect people in them. People can have power in some systems and none in others…

Maybe you're right, that it makes no difference to him. To me, it matters a great deal. None of these systems are static; they are constantly changing, and we have some control over how they change. You can compare the systems that already exist, and on some set of criteria say that these are better or worse than those. So although there's never going to be 'one system to rule them all', at some point I think we do need to figure out which aspects of our system are variables and which are constants, because if we don't decide what to change, someone else will decide for us.
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