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The Next Car You Buy Should Be Electric

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Re: The Next Car You Buy Should Be Electric

#81
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware of those numbers, and they are still both an environmental cost, regardless of how they happen. EVs swap high environmental running costs for high environmental manufacturing costs, and then we in developed countries externalise those costs by sourcing most of the component parts from other countries, and tell ourselves that we have done something great for the world. Edit: It takes 25MWh to manufacture jus…

Those numbers (18,000Kg CO2) do not seem to line up with what is researchers have reported.

I've seen plenty of numbers reported, but I think I made a reasonable estimate. I'd be curious to see what you have found. This paper does seem to indicate that the estimates have come down recently:

https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/13/23/6345/pdf

Let's re-do my maths, assuming I over-estimated the CO2 output of manufacturing the EV battery by 100%, and this time we'll assume a charging grid (that is, where the EV will be charged) CO2 output of 0.3kg CO2 / kWh, which is worse than where I live, but better than the US.

I'll also assume an electrical power transmission loss of 10%, and an EV wall-to-wheel efficency of 80%, as well as keeping my well-to-tank CO2 production factor of 1.5 for petrol.

The answer comes out at around 25,000 miles. Better, but not great. At this point, your EV now continues producing CO2 at a rate of 0.12kg/mi, and the ICE car at 0.47kg/mi. By 100,000 miles, your EV has comparatively emitted 21,000kg CO2 (charging emissions of 12,000kg CO2 + battery pack of 9,000kg CO2), to the ICE car's 47,000kg CO2.

I have not taken into account the manufacture and maintentance of all of the EV charging points, which I expect to be substantial.

Looking at the overall - you have about halved your CO2 output for transport, as well as being able to offload about half of that again to whichever country manufactured the battery pack. You have also offloaded all of the point-of-use emissions, again effectively to whichever country manufactured the battery pack. To achieve this great success, an enormous amount of metals and semiconductors had to be used to manufacture all the charging points, as well as the attendant environmental damage and pollution from mineral mining, and disposal.

The fact that the overall benefits of EVs are even debatable, should tell you that this is not the radical change we apparently need to avert a climate catastrophe. To me, it seems like it would provide at best a modest improvement, all while seriously enriching a select few companies and economies.

If it really were about making radical changes to avert a climate catastrophe, it sounds like we should all be cycling, or at worst, using Honda C50 mopeds.

If you say "well, a 50% reduction is worth it", you could achieve that by driving half as much. Or by driving 75% as much, and changing to a car that is 25% more efficient. Or by car-sharing. None of those require enormous amounts of extra mineral extraction and pollution, but none of those make anyone any money, so there we go.

The unsustainable part of personal transport is the huge metal box we all expect to sit in, not the fuel used to power it.

Re: The Next Car You Buy Should Be Electric

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - Very few trips are long enough to deplete an EVs battery Ever drive to vacation by car? Or visit relatives a few hours away? Not all of our trips are inner-city or in a similarly small radius. So if you don't want 2 cars, electric is not an option. > - EVs have significantly lower Total Costs of Ownership Doesn't help with them being way more expensive in acquisition. There is also no used car market for them AFA…

-- you could rent a petrol car for your vacation trip once a year, or make a charging and sleeping stop, or use fast chargers along the route (also not yet available everywhere) -- you could private lease an electric car -- I agree that it is not an option for everybody, everywhere. But with a little effort it will be for a lot of people in a lot of places -- See this video for a comparison: https://www.youtube.com/w…

Renting is absurdly expensive for any vacation distances. Around a hundred dollars a day, plus mileage (enterprise is, for example, 100 miles per day, and 10¢ for each mile after).

Might as well buy a used car for those prices.

Re: The Next Car You Buy Should Be Electric

#83
post #58
post #19

> The first car I bought (after driving a self-repaired / built junk) was a Honda Civic type-R Yeah, no, not all of us have enough money to have had as our first car a "Honda Civic type-R". Probably the title should read be more like: "If You're At Least Comfortably Middle-Class The Next Car You Buy Should Be Electric". But of course all this push to EVs is a huge regressive tax applied to the less-off people which i…

Granted, EVs are still considerably more expensive than conventional cars, but that's not set in stone. Except for the battery, the rest of the car is much simpler than an ICE-based one, so once they are produced in greater numbers, prices should come down.

Tesla alone sold over half a million cars in 2020. Where are these price drops? $35k for their cheapest model (whose design is now 4 years old) is not something easily afforded.

For a point of comparison, you can buy a high end Subaru Outback for that same price, and it’s a really, really nice car.

Re: The Next Car You Buy Should Be Electric

#84
When charging is as fast and simple and universal as filling your tank with gas, it will start to make sense. I can go on a long trip, with brief interruptions for refueling/refreshments/etc. and expect to reach my destination in a reasonable amount of time. With an EV, I’m inevitably going to be stuck somewhere, having completed the other tasks, but waiting for the vehicle to refuel enough to continue onward. Worse, if I reach the destination and there’s no easy way to immediately recharge for the trip back, then the vehicle is effectively useless, except as shelter.

Until the EV infrastructure is as universal and simple as gas-power, it’s not an option.

Re: The Next Car You Buy Should Be Electric

#85
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those numbers (18,000Kg CO2) do not seem to line up with what is researchers have reported.

I've seen plenty of numbers reported, but I think I made a reasonable estimate. I'd be curious to see what you have found. This paper does seem to indicate that the estimates have come down recently: https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/13/23/6345/pdf Let's re-do my maths, assuming I over-estimated the CO2 output of manufacturing the EV battery by 100%, and this time we'll assume a charging grid (that is, where the EV will…

None of the things you mention are mutually exclusive. They all combine very nicely.

Re: The Next Car You Buy Should Be Electric

#86
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen plenty of numbers reported, but I think I made a reasonable estimate. I'd be curious to see what you have found. This paper does seem to indicate that the estimates have come down recently: https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/13/23/6345/pdf Let's re-do my maths, assuming I over-estimated the CO2 output of manufacturing the EV battery by 100%, and this time we'll assume a charging grid (that is, where the EV will…

None of the things you mention are mutually exclusive. They all combine very nicely.

Excellent. Then I will continue running my cheap ICE, avoiding the cost and environmental damage associated with an EV, all while cycling to work and other destinations as much as possible.

Re: The Next Car You Buy Should Be Electric

#87
post #70
post #39

I don't like to discuss EVs in public because things quickly devolve into an inquisition if one doesn't fully embrace the messaging, but I'll bite. From an enthusiast perspective, I have no issues with an electric powertrain. The concept has a lot of promise once the implementation matures. The current issues I have with electric _powertrains_ (not vehicles) are: Relatively short battery lifespan, high replacement co…

>As for the environmental aspect, well, I'm probably going to regret saying this openly. We live in a fully industrialized world. Unless we're all willing to go back to using wind power to transport cargo and carriages to transport people, while simultaneously getting the world population back to pre-industrial levels, it's a bit too late. I don't think you're going to be saving anything with your EV. The messaging a…

>a quick switch to EV will substantially reduce the amount of carbon pollution

An even quicker switch to "drive less" will do as much good, and save you a load of money too! (As well as consuming significantly less of the world's resources)

Re: The Next Car You Buy Should Be Electric

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Petrol cars can be easily fixed in a driveway.

Not a modern one. An outdated, inefficient one, sure. But not one that is actually built to be efficient.

The Fiat 500 from 1957 got 43mpg. Imagine what could be done, if car manufacturers were not focussed on the lease market, meeting the newest emissions regulations (more relevant in Europe), and filling cars with electronic toys.

Re: The Next Car You Buy Should Be Electric

#89
post #58
post #19

> The first car I bought (after driving a self-repaired / built junk) was a Honda Civic type-R Yeah, no, not all of us have enough money to have had as our first car a "Honda Civic type-R". Probably the title should read be more like: "If You're At Least Comfortably Middle-Class The Next Car You Buy Should Be Electric". But of course all this push to EVs is a huge regressive tax applied to the less-off people which i…

Granted, EVs are still considerably more expensive than conventional cars, but that's not set in stone. Except for the battery, the rest of the car is much simpler than an ICE-based one, so once they are produced in greater numbers, prices should come down.

>"Much simpler"

I don't think so. I bet you could make a reasonably performant ICE from scratch, yourself. By "scratch", let's say - from chunks of any homogenous material you want. You would have absolutely no chance of doing the same for an electric car (unless you made a lead-acid system with crude, mechanical switching for motor control, which was not considered performant in 1900).

The only way that such a statement can be made, is because the marvels of the modern, global component supply chain have completely obscured the amount of design and material complexity present in items we take for granted every day.

Re: The Next Car You Buy Should Be Electric

#90
If I were in the market for a $25K-$40K car then I would definitely look at an electric. But I'm not. The next car I'm going to buy is for my daughter who has to move out of her college dorm for her last two years of undergrad (her school only has dorms for the first two years). I'm looking for something used, small, and not super expensive. I'm leaning heavily towards a Honda Fit.

Bottom line? The next car I buy is almost certain to have an internal combustion engine.

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