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Apology

felleisen.org

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Re: Apology

#81

Post by DoreenMichele »

jtbayly wrote: post #17

Summary of several HN replies: “Yeah, yeah, whatever. Saying you’re sorry doesn’t cut it. You need to pay for it before we will accept your apology.” Hence, cancel culture. Edit: There’s no need to therefor assume the dude is totally changed based on one apology, but good grief people. The lesson I’m learning here is, “Never apologize. It will do no good and will simply drag the situation out longer.”

Public apologies tend to be performative, not sincere, hence the pile on of negative stuff.

Sincere public apologies do tend to result in people going "You my bitch and whenever I'm an ass, I expect you to kiss my ass and say it's somehow your fault."

Public apologies tend to be a bad idea overall. It's a minefield of potential serious problems.

Re: Apology

#82

Post by [deleted] »

neolog wrote: post #77
whatshisface wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between someone who is naturally mean and happens to be in power and someone that uses meanness to get power.

The point is if you're in power it's more important to not behave badly than if you're not in power. It's also easier in some ways, because you can get help from experienced outsiders who have a stake in your success and you can afford to experiment with improvement methods without getting fired. There are ways in which it's harder, such as if employees are too scared to tell you when you're being nasty.

[deleted]

Re: Apology

#83

Post by wpietri »

williamsmj wrote: post #10

tldr: "I barely remember the specific incident you cited merely as an example of an ongoing pattern of absuive behavior, but it sounds like I was a jerk that day. Oops! We good?"

Well put. And to me that's one of the horrors of abusers. I believe they really don't remember the details of the incidents. For them it's a momentary way to feel good. For the victims, it sticks with them for months, years, decades.

Re: Apology

#84

Post by neolog »

wpietri wrote: post #78
nubb wrote: post #38

I’m so surprised at the vitriol in these comments. He spoke to others about the situation and apologized. What more can a person do?

What more can a person do? Just off the top of my head: He could have addressed the full substance of the blog post, which was a pattern of "inten­tional, person­al­ized abuse and bullying" with "inci­dents were numerous, happening over a period of years". He could have used this incident to reflect on his broader behavior not just toward this one person but more generally. He could have talked the steps he was takin…

Good answer.

Though "ask for forgiveness" seems like a specific cultural/quasireligious thing that not everybody assigns meaning to.

Re: Apology

#85

Post by wpietri »

chronogram wrote: post #44
MaxBarraclough wrote: post #3

Context: Why I no longer contribute to Racket . https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27531508

So both just needed to talk to each other? No idea why they have to go through HN proxies.

Talking privately to a bully rarely works. And the the one bully wasn't really the problem here. It was a social system that not only ignored his bullying but actively supported it. The real audience here is the broader community, which now has to decide what they want to do about the problem Butterick has been generous enough to explain in detail.

Re: Apology

#86

Post by yellow_lead »

I'm curious why this was flagged. If the discussion yesterday didn't break HN rules, I'm not sure why the response would. I suppose both of them technically fall into "off-topic" discussion though.

Re: Apology

#87

Post by wpietri »

neolog wrote: post #84
wpietri wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What more can a person do? Just off the top of my head: He could have addressed the full substance of the blog post, which was a pattern of "inten­tional, person­al­ized abuse and bullying" with "inci­dents were numerous, happening over a period of years". He could have used this incident to reflect on his broader behavior not just toward this one person but more generally. He could have talked the steps he was takin…

Good answer. Though "ask for forgiveness" seems like a specific cultural/quasireligious thing that not everybody assigns meaning to.

In the sense of asking forgiveness from $DEITY, sure. But in the sense of saying to the person harmed, "Please forgive me," I think it's very broad.

Re: Apology

#88

Post by IncRnd »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #3

Context: Why I no longer contribute to Racket . https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27531508

Thank you. That references the blog at https://beautifulracket.com/appendix/why-i-no-longer-contrib....

At the beginning: "No facts were disputed. The inci­dents were numerous, happening over a period of years. They were always witnessed by others on the Racket core team. For that reason, there’s no need to enumerate the details now. Though I will give one example as illus­tra­tion"

If there was no need to enumerate details, why did he write an additional 12 pages in a blog post?

This whole incident, whatever it was or is, seems like two personalities with egos that won't stop. That's not something I care about.

Re: Apology

#89

Post by DoreenMichele »

yellow_lead wrote: post #86

I'm curious why this was flagged. If the discussion yesterday didn't break HN rules, I'm not sure why the response would. I suppose both of them technically fall into "off-topic" discussion though.

Flags are from users. So to some extent it's random personal opinion and unless you identified all individuals who flagged it and asked them why?, you aren't going to actually know, though it is fairly common for someone to give their opinion about why they think it was likely flagged (and sometimes I appreciate their observations and sometimes I'm kind of like "That's just your opinion, man!").

Re: Apology

#90

Post by neolog »

wpietri wrote: post #87
neolog wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good answer. Though "ask for forgiveness" seems like a specific cultural/quasireligious thing that not everybody assigns meaning to.

In the sense of asking forgiveness from $DEITY, sure. But in the sense of saying to the person harmed, "Please forgive me," I think it's very broad.

I dunno
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