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World Bank rejects El Salvador request for Bitcoin help

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Re: World Bank rejects El Salvador request for Bitcoin help

#81

Post by sub7 »

chroem- wrote: post #52
sub7 wrote: post #33

We keep talking about how tech should be used to make a net positive change yet we allow this glorified linked list that has 0 real world benefits after a decade to get a pass because some man children run around promising it's the future.

That "glorified linked list" solves a lot of problems in peer to peer computing. In fact, blockchains are arguably the biggest breakthrough that subfield of computer science has ever seen.

It's a kademlia based app, this shit was around in the 90s. I'd argue the biggest breakthrough was the Turing machine but sure the consensus math is interesting.

Re: World Bank rejects El Salvador request for Bitcoin help

#82

Post by elevenoh »

davidgerard wrote: post #64
elevenoh wrote: post #6

>"While the government did approach us for assistance on Bitcoin, this is not something the World Bank can support given the environmental and transparency shortcomings," they added. Environmental as the #1 concern? Bitcoin's enegery:market-cap ratio - a proxy for energy vs. value to humans - is >300x better than an airline & 60x better than JP Morgan & 20x better than google's. https://twitter.com/Okcoin/status/1403…

> Bitcoin's enegery:market-cap ratio This is absolutely the most contrived number I've ever seen put into the service of excuses for bitcoin's ghastly energy consumption. This is actuallly a new one on me. It's especially good since "market cap" of a crypto is a made-up marketing number that tells you nothing about the price or its likely movements - it is, literally, the last speculative trading spot price multiplie…

>It's especially good since "market cap" of a crypto is a made-up marketing number

I've never heard this before. What makes you think this?

If there's one thing I've learned, an open market is rarely wrong, esp. in the mid to long term.

Re: World Bank rejects El Salvador request for Bitcoin help

#83

Post by zakember »

qiqitori wrote: post #25

Other random bitcoin concerns (apart from the environmental ones): - How about people stop accepting laundered bitcoins first and foremost? - Any bitcoins that have provably been involved in illegal stuff - Any monero/whathaveyou that come from exchanges that accept bitcoin that have received Bitcoins that were involved in illegal stuff - Will bitcoin still have value when quantum computers are around?

Yes. Vitalik Buterin (Ethereum founder) talks about this in his talk with Lex Fridman. According to him, the overhead of running a Quantum computer will be higher than the speed-up advantage you get by using it for mining.

Link to his talk https://youtu.be/3x1b_S6Qp2Q?t=2580 (43:00)

Re: World Bank rejects El Salvador request for Bitcoin help

#84

Post by desine »

jollybean wrote: post #61
cassepipe wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be but what is your litmus test about? Can you elaborate on it?

The public justification for killing Gaddafi is 'stopping the imminent genocide', which by the way, he literally declared he was about to commit. But the real smart people who have the special knowledge know that it was obviously >. The thing is, geopolitics is messy and there are quite a number of 'factors' many of them true to some extent. The Gulf tribal leaders absolutely hated him and they (i.e. Qatar) lent thei…

>The public justification for killing Gaddafi is 'stopping the imminent genocide', which by the way, he literally declared he was about to commit. >The thing is, geopolitics is messy and there are quite a number of 'factors' many of them true to some extent.

Yes, exactly. It's not that I know I am right, or that there's one answer. But it is interesting only one of the discussions is allowed, and one very plausible explanation is universally labeled as a "conspiracy theory".

>The real question to ask someone when they are talking about 'Bitcoin' is how much Bitcoin (or other crypto) do you own? Because I find it's like talking to people in Amway or Scientology.

FWIW, basically none. Might have an old wallet on the computer in my closet with ~.1 left on it, from back when I used to buy drugs off the silk road. But I'm not a crypto fanatic, though I do find it interesting.

Re: World Bank rejects El Salvador request for Bitcoin help

#85

Post by tsimionescu »

desine wrote: post #27
smhost wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but geothermal energy creates pollution. It's considered a cleaner alternative to tradition energy sources insofar as it replaces existing energy demands, not when the demand is being created ad hoc.

What kind of pollution does geothermal create? Honest question. I was under the impression it's just steam spinning turbines. Akin to a nuclear plant but without all the problematic radioactive fuel.

Any construction project generates significant greenhouse gas - concrete and its production are major GHG generators, and disturbing the soil, displacing living plants also tends to generate emissions.

Building a new power plant in addition to all your existing ones will never reduce GHG emissions, regardless of how clean the new one is. We need to start tearing down old power plants and reducing consumption overall, not finding new things to spend countries' worth of energy on.

Re: World Bank rejects El Salvador request for Bitcoin help

#86

Post by rualca »

kerng wrote: post #13

The world bank responding to such a request shows how big of a thing Bitcoin has become. It also appears that the concerns are not strong, more wishy-washy comments that could be disputed or clarified eventually. Wonder what they say if/when more countries do inquiries and adopt Bitcoin.

> The world bank responding to such a request shows how big of a thing Bitcoin has become.

No, not really. The World Bank answers the questions their members ask them.

In this case El Salvador's president asked the World Bank to help him out implementing his plan to adopt Bitcoin as a parallel legal currency, but the World Bank rejected the request citing environmental and transparency concerns.

If anything, the only big thing in this story is that El Salvador's president made a promise to adopt a new currency even though he has no clear plan, or realistic, to pull it off.

Re: World Bank rejects El Salvador request for Bitcoin help

#87

Post by chroem- »

sub7 wrote: post #81
chroem- wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That "glorified linked list" solves a lot of problems in peer to peer computing. In fact, blockchains are arguably the biggest breakthrough that subfield of computer science has ever seen.

It's a kademlia based app, this shit was around in the 90s. I'd argue the biggest breakthrough was the Turing machine but sure the consensus math is interesting.

Kademlia had no consensus mechanism.

>I'd argue the biggest breakthrough was the Turing machine

Witty, but that's not peer to peer computing.

Re: World Bank rejects El Salvador request for Bitcoin help

#88

Post by qiqitori »

adrianN wrote: post #36
qiqitori wrote: post #25

Other random bitcoin concerns (apart from the environmental ones): - How about people stop accepting laundered bitcoins first and foremost? - Any bitcoins that have provably been involved in illegal stuff - Any monero/whathaveyou that come from exchanges that accept bitcoin that have received Bitcoins that were involved in illegal stuff - Will bitcoin still have value when quantum computers are around?

I'm pretty much the opposite of a bitcoin fan, but I think if you replaced "bitcoin" with "dollars" in your comment you would see that it sounds a bit weird. I bet most dollars have been involved in shady business at some point during their life. With bitcoin you have a better chance at figuring this fact out I guess. Regarding quantum computers: Quantum computers are not known to be exponentially faster at hashing t…

That is true.

On the other hand, while I'm (unfortunately for this discussion) not an expert in money laundering laws, the police tend to confiscate money that is known to have been laundered (or even before they know for sure apparently). Since Bitcoins are trackable, tumbled bitcoins should be "confiscated" (by marking them as illegal for use in @countries in some kind of database) and then, if the previous owner proves that they weren't doing anything illegal, unmarked. Once there is proof of illegal activity, the previous owner could be forced to return them to the rightful owner (if a rightful owner exists, such as in the case of ransomware), or either kept marked as confiscated or even marked as permanently invalid.

Re: World Bank rejects El Salvador request for Bitcoin help

#89

Post by desine »

astrange wrote: post #56
cassepipe wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be but what is your litmus test about? Can you elaborate on it?

Conspiracy theory about moving off the petrodollar, presumably.

One other thing - I hate the term "conspiracy theory". It was literally coined by the CIA to discredit discussion of actual conspiracies. But that's just another crazy conspiracy theory for another HN thread.

Re: World Bank rejects El Salvador request for Bitcoin help

#90

Post by senectus1 »

qiqitori wrote: post #25

Other random bitcoin concerns (apart from the environmental ones): - How about people stop accepting laundered bitcoins first and foremost? - Any bitcoins that have provably been involved in illegal stuff - Any monero/whathaveyou that come from exchanges that accept bitcoin that have received Bitcoins that were involved in illegal stuff - Will bitcoin still have value when quantum computers are around?

>- How about people stop accepting laundered bitcoins first and foremost?

How do people know its laundered? If they know, its likely they're complicit so unlikely to stop if being asked to...

> - Any bitcoins that have provably been involved in illegal stuff

See above

> - Any monero/whathaveyou that come from exchanges that accept bitcoin that have received Bitcoins that were involved in illegal stuff

See above also

>- Will bitcoin still have value when quantum computers are around?

Why not? Its reasonable to assume that any increasing capability in hardware will likely also benefit design and capability of software. They'll just make the maths a lot lot harder (to be absurdly simplistic)

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