Live data from Hacker News

The Swiss reject key climate change measures

bbc.com

81–90 of 116 posts

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#81
post #57

The Swiss rejected some taxes. I think this is an important distinction compared to "climate change measures". The (very slim) majority may feel that such taxes are not the best way to deal with climate change, and support other ideas instead. There are a lot of politicians presenting the false choice of wealth redistribution or climate change apathy. There are other ways of looking at this, which I don't think are c…

There are three main ways governments can change behaviours: - Tax the behaviour they want to discourage. - Subsidise a behaviour they want to encourage. - Outlaw a behaviour they want to discourage. It looks like all three were attempted based on the article. > A proposal to outlaw artificial pesticides, and another to improve drinking water by giving subsidies only to farmers who eschew chemicals were both voted do…

Taxing behavior that you want to discourage is an oxymoron or at least it creates a perversive incentive in which the government taxes something but doesn’t invest and even sometimes hampers alternatives because it values the tax income.

Subsidies aren’t much better either in many cases…

We see this with EVs now where countries and jurisdictions are looking for ways to make up for the lost tax revenue due to ever and ever increasing EV sales.

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#83

We need more referendums in the US. It would nice to see the people rebuke the far left and right more often.

The problem with referenda is they are effective as breaks on an out of touch legislature rather than problem solving tools in and of themselves.

In a democracy you have to horse trade. You have to compromise. If 51% want X and 49% want not X, then you don't implement X, you implement 51% of X, or alternately you give the opponents something else so everyone walks away a little happy and a little unhappy. The idea of total victory as a result of getting 51% jeapordizes the republic as a whole -- that's how you get secession and create chaos, by locking people out entirely instead of giving them some of what they want and some of what they don't want. Referenda aren't able to do this. They aren't able to put people into a room and say "OK, we will put a bridge here and to gain your support we'll move the library over there". That type of consensus gathering process is critical to governing, which is why long lasting forms of government require closer to 60% or even more, e.g. they add various hoops and checks and balances to prevent the 51% from forcing their way and excluding the 49%. These anti-democratic measures are required for democracy to work.

This is similar to leading a team. If you have 10 devs and 6 are strongly for something and 4 are strongly against, only the bad manager chooses to steamroll over the 4. The good manager will find some alternate compromise to get most of those 4 onboard, because you don't want to lose a large chunk of your team and need a broader consensus than just 50% +1.

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#84
21 cantons (out of 26) voted against. Looking at the geographic distribution [1] it's evident support was narrowly concentrated to cities like Geneva, Zürich and Basel.

Conclusion: people who need their car on a daily basis think that gasoline is expensive enough at 6.492 USD/gallon [2] (as of June 7, when US drivers paid 3.399 USD/gallon according to the same site).

[1] https://www.bluewin.ch/de/news/schweiz/so-stimmt-deine-gemei...

[2] https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/Switzerland/gasoline_pric...

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#85

It would be very interesting to see a breakdown of voting by age. Environmental destruction has a much greater impact to the young.

Votes need change from INT to FLOAT, so old people get 0.75 of a vote and young people get 1.5 ... because [edit] downvotes! Why? Is it a crazy idea that young people should have more of a say about their future than old people? Where I live the old generation are fucking over the young generation in a big way.

Knowing HN, it would not surprise me if the downvotes are because you used FLOAT rather than DECIMAL.

As far as the actual idea goes, better would be to (1) make it finer gained, and to (2) make it depend on the issue being voted upon.

Maybe something like this (numbers for illustration only--much more thought would need to go into determining the right numbers):

(1) If the life expectancy for an average voter of your age is at least 30 years, your vote weight is 1.00.

(2) If your life expectancy is not at least 30 years, your vote weight decreases as a function of how much under 30 years it is, reaching a minimum of 0.25 at 10 years life expectancy and then staying at 0.25 for the rest of your actual life, unless #3 applies.

(3) If a particular issue will likely have major short term consequences, your vote weight is based on the percentage of that short term that occurs within your life expectancy.

If I'm only expected to live 10 more years and we're voting on something that is going to seriously affect people for much much longer than that, it seems only fair that the people who are going to be more affected should have more say than me. That's what #2 is trying to cover.

#3 is to protect people against front loaded projects. Say the vote is on building something that will take 10 years to build and then have a major impact for the next century, and construction is going to be paid for by a 10 year tax increase. People with 10 year life expectancy would only get a 0.25 vote under #2, but they would be fully hit by the taxes in this case, and see none of the benefit, so they should have more say. #3 in this case would supersede #2 and give them a 1.00 vote.

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tangent, but there has to be a better way to measure population density than taking total area as the denominator and headcount as the numerator. Something like 'median density': sort citizens by local density, find the median, and report that. My guess is that California would have a higher number than Florida by that measure. I don't know about Switzerland vs. California, but that's the question I'd like to answer…

Another approach might be to start by subtracting land not available for most human uses for whatever reason, e.g. up on the Eiger, or in a large national park, or on a military reservation (places like Pendleton and Hunter Liggett immediately come to mind in California).

I'd guess those two approaches converge on a similar number, but using the median density is pure statistics, while removing unused land is more of a judgement call.

The median approach does risk minor artifacts based on the divisions used to calculate density (census tracts in the United States), but since we're looking for a median value, and census tracts are pretty small, it should be reasonably precise.

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#87
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One might want to study the impacts of initiative voting in the western US. There are times when bypassing the legislative process is perhaps essential (term-limits for legislators?), but mostly it bypasses the compromises often made in representative democracies. Initiatives can impose new law without handling externalities well. It is possible to vote for "no new taxes" and "properly fund schools!" without balancin…

Note that the Swiss constitution was inspired by California’s, and improved on its broken referendum model in several ways.

Curious, you have a source ? from the wiki "with a constitution promulgated on 12 September 1848. This constitution provided for the cantons' sovereignty, as long as this did not impinge on the Federal Constitution. The creation of a bicameral assembly was consciously inspired by the United States Constitution, the National Council and Council of States corresponding to the House of Representatives and Senate, respectively "

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#88
post #39

We need more referendums in the US. It would nice to see the people rebuke the far left and right more often.

California and some other US states have referendums (ballot propositions). Since the US is a federal republic it would be impossible to have national level referendums without sweeping changes to the Constitution.

Why? There's nothing in the Constitution that forbids referendums. I'd imagine it'd be tricky for the current Congress to try and bind the hands of a future congress i.e. The current Congress creates a referendum that compels the next Congress to pass a certain bill and the President to sign it.

There's no reason the current Congress couldn't pass a bill and the President sign it into law that says the current Congress will act in accordance with the result of referendum. The congress could even pass the enabling of the referendum and the enabling of the result of the referendum without the consent of the President - if they have the votes to override the President's veto.

It'd be odd to be sure but I don't see why they can't do it.

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that the Swiss constitution was inspired by California’s, and improved on its broken referendum model in several ways.

Curious, you have a source ? from the wiki "with a constitution promulgated on 12 September 1848. This constitution provided for the cantons' sovereignty, as long as this did not impinge on the Federal Constitution. The creation of a bicameral assembly was consciously inspired by the United States Constitution, the National Council and Council of States corresponding to the House of Representatives and Senate, respec…

We replaced it in 1999 [1].

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Federal_Constitution

Re: The Swiss reject key climate change measures

#90
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California and some other US states have referendums (ballot propositions). Since the US is a federal republic it would be impossible to have national level referendums without sweeping changes to the Constitution.

Why? There's nothing in the Constitution that forbids referendums. I'd imagine it'd be tricky for the current Congress to try and bind the hands of a future congress i.e. The current Congress creates a referendum that compels the next Congress to pass a certain bill and the President to sign it. There's no reason the current Congress couldn't pass a bill and the President sign it into law that says the current Congre…

US Congress doesn't "act" the way you're implying. The US Congress can only write legislation and that legislation must abide by the US Constitution (it often doesn't, especially nowadays). The President can sign whatever they want to, but unless it's a Constitutional authority, the states will give them the middle finger. Also, don't underestimate the demonstrated willingness of county sheriffs to ignore unconstitutional laws.
Post reply on HN