The PinePhone could bring the Linux mobile ecosystem to life • Hacker News Board

Re: The PinePhone could bring the Linux mobile ecosystem to life

#81

Post by nazgulsenpai » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #42

nazgulsenpai wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I'm not entirely sure on the specifics, this is where Anbox can hopefully create a workable Android runtime layer. While it would be a bit overly optimistic to assume that "secure" authentication type apps would work, it could help with adoption for people like me who are missing that one vitally important app required to make the PinePhone a daily driver.

Unfortunately, Anbox isn’t a longterm solution for non-libre Android apps. The problem is that more and more Android apps require passing SafetyNet. It started with banking apps, then spread to games, and Google may one day simply encourage every app to require it. Even Android ROMs stripped of Google services like LineageOS are finding it a challenge to pass SafetyNet, let alone Anbox.

Ah okay, that's unfortunate but thank you for clarifying.

Re: The PinePhone could bring the Linux mobile ecosystem to life

#82

Post by ocdtrekkie » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 7:16 PM UTC

spankalee wrote: post #69

fabrice_d wrote: post #35

The biggest threat to Linux on phones could be Fuchsia. If/when Google decides to switch to a Fuchsia base for Android, all the chipset vendors will follow suit and that will make it even harder to find chipsets that can be used with a Linux kernel - upstream or not. That will dry up the amount of effort put into making Linux a good mobile platform. Maybe the stable binary api of Fuchsia drivers will be usable on Lin…

Fuchsia is a much more secure and updatable platform. It'd be wonderful if there was a Pine-like for Fuchsia, especially if they can use open drivers.

It will definitely be more secure, but probably drastically less open, since there won't be any GPL code underneath for people to demand copies of.

Fuchsia, once it reaches the level of polish required of proper Google products, will be as closed as iOS. And security will be the justification for it.

Re: The PinePhone could bring the Linux mobile ecosystem to life

#83

Post by fabrice_d » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 7:16 PM UTC

lupire wrote: post #57

fabrice_d wrote: post #35

The biggest threat to Linux on phones could be Fuchsia. If/when Google decides to switch to a Fuchsia base for Android, all the chipset vendors will follow suit and that will make it even harder to find chipsets that can be used with a Linux kernel - upstream or not. That will dry up the amount of effort put into making Linux a good mobile platform. Maybe the stable binary api of Fuchsia drivers will be usable on Lin…

Is something wrong with using Fuchsia kernel insted of Linux? It's open source and it has a modern, secure capability architecture. Running Linux binaries , not just source code, is a design goal of Fuchsia: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26104667

Fuchsia has a lot of good features technically, there is no doubt about that - it was time to revisit how an OS should be designed given the usage patterns of devices it powers. I hope the capability model will put to rest the insanity that is SELinux (just look at the amount and complexity of SELinux rules in AOSP). The license choice for the kernel is more controversial, but no one expected Google to ship under the GPL.

It also happens to solve some of the pain points with Android: in a way it is "Project Treble on steroids" aiming to resolve the issue with fragmentation and lack of long term support from Android chipsets and OEMs.

Re: The PinePhone could bring the Linux mobile ecosystem to life

#84

Post by bserge » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 7:16 PM UTC

I would not buy one of these when I can get a used phone with better specs that was "hacked" for Linux support.

Re: The PinePhone could bring the Linux mobile ecosystem to life

#85

Post by ocdtrekkie » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 7:18 PM UTC

tetrisgm wrote: post #5

I want the PinePhone to work. The Librem too. In fact I had preorders for both. I canceled them looking at the performance. They’re excellent toys. Great effort to ship such a difficult product. But if your phone is going to struggle with running things besides terminal, it’s not going to be a great daily phone. I’d love them to be on par with the latest Android flagships in terms of power. Cost is not an issue. I ju…

I think if they can nail the low-end or mid-end phone, and get enough volume out there to make an ecosystem possible, ramping up to high-end phones is the easy part. It's not like the factories manufacturing these phones don't know how to make high-end phones.

But the problem with $800 phones is people can't afford to buy them unless they're daily driver ready. At $150, you can buy it as a testing phone/a spare phone, and start building apps for it.

Windows Mobile was murdered first and foremost by the lack of wider support and a larger app ecosystem. Getting as many phones out there as possible is the key to avoiding this with Linux phones.

Re: The PinePhone could bring the Linux mobile ecosystem to life

#86

Post by oarsinsync » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 7:18 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #66

m4rtink wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the things I worry about - a duopoly not just backed by two wealthy and shady megacorps but also effectively by law as it mandates a mobile app for some things yet the app only exists for iOS and Android & no public API is available.

Shouldn't they at least support the Web?

Several of the “challenger” / “FinTech” banks in the UK (e.g. Monzo, Starling) require the use of their app. They offer limited read-only views via web, but only offer all features via app. No iOS / Android phone? Go to a different bank.

Re: The PinePhone could bring the Linux mobile ecosystem to life

#87

Post by fabrice_d » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 7:18 PM UTC

Google234 wrote: post #73

ognarb wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most (all?) the drivers will be closed source since the license allows it.

At least they won’t break with every minor update.

Unless the OEMs customize the whole stack to only allow the kernel to talk to their drivers. That is only enforceable by legal constraints from Google akin to the CTS [0].

[0] https://source.android.com/compatibility/cts

Re: The PinePhone could bring the Linux mobile ecosystem to life

#88

Post by richardwhiuk » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 7:19 PM UTC

jokoon wrote: post #61

Why not just use android on such phone, and remove google dependencies? Android is open source. Android is already using linux. I really don't get it. I wish somebody could answer this question with convincing arguments, because writing another mobile OS doesn't seem like a trivial task.

Then fork Android?

Re: The PinePhone could bring the Linux mobile ecosystem to life

#89

Post by testific8 » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

spankalee wrote: post #69

fabrice_d wrote: post #35

The biggest threat to Linux on phones could be Fuchsia. If/when Google decides to switch to a Fuchsia base for Android, all the chipset vendors will follow suit and that will make it even harder to find chipsets that can be used with a Linux kernel - upstream or not. That will dry up the amount of effort put into making Linux a good mobile platform. Maybe the stable binary api of Fuchsia drivers will be usable on Lin…

Fuchsia is a much more secure and updatable platform. It'd be wonderful if there was a Pine-like for Fuchsia, especially if they can use open drivers.

I disagree. Fuchsia will eliminate the need for the hardware vendor to supply open-source drivers. In this regard, it is a major step backwards in security and upgradability.

Re: The PinePhone could bring the Linux mobile ecosystem to life

#90

Post by ocdtrekkie » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

jokoon wrote: post #61

Why not just use android on such phone, and remove google dependencies? Android is open source. Android is already using linux. I really don't get it. I wish somebody could answer this question with convincing arguments, because writing another mobile OS doesn't seem like a trivial task.

So, the problem is that Android is open source in concept and name only, not in practice: Code is developed in the dark, and then published later, it's not a collaborative environment. And the important part is that Google fully controls what direction Android development moves in. So they're going to design it to advantage themselves and disadvantage others.

So the first problem with that is that the work to remove their influence becomes progressively harder, and the bigger problem is that if you want to maintain app compatibility, you basically have to accept nearly everything Google decides to do as is... you can't really "just fork it" without losing the main perk of running Android: Running Android apps.

As it is, most Android apps won't work on a device without Google Play Services, because Google has pushed app developers year after year to switch from depending on Android platform APIs over to Google Play Services APIs for basic functions like location.