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LSD and psilocybin increase the fractal dimension of brain activity

biorxiv.org

81–90 of 160 posts

Re: LSD and psilocybin increase the fractal dimension of brain activity

#81
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can one determine if they are at risk of psychosis prior to consuming LSD? Family history of mental illness, particularly schizophrenia. > I've heard many stories of people who were "never the same" (in a bad life-outcome sense) after having bad LSD trips. I think those stories are overblown. People like to have something to blame for when a loved one goes down the wrong path.

> history This was addressed in my previous comment. I've known folks who took the stuff and had a horrible reaction, without family history as such. Also, consuming street drugs of unknown quality in uncontrolled settings with uncontrolled dosages is quite different than controlled medical experiments. > overblown I never wanted to try the stuff after personally observing people change after having a "bad trip". If…

All true, of course. I have had great success helping two people who had "bad trips" as a trip sitter. Both people had a troubled adolescence, but are now doing extremely well as adults and are highly successful. Whenever I see them, they always thank me for helping them. The truth of the matter, is that I didn't do anything at all, I just made them feel safe and let them knew that everything was going to be okay.

Re: LSD and psilocybin increase the fractal dimension of brain activity

#82
post #4

Well, yes, adding noise increases the fractal dimension of a signal. "Shannon entropy" is noise. "Lempel-Ziv complexity" is "how long is the zip file".

This is an important description, as when you think of a chemical creating impairment, it is essentially adding noise to signals in your brain, and a lot of the geometric and fractal artifacts we see resemble noise artifacts you would get from interfering with other analogue signals. Given your brain takes sensory signal input and coheres it, impairing that ability is going to create signals-based feedback that is de…

Just an amazing comment. As someone who has experienced profound states of psychedelia, and having consumed vast amounts of data pertaining to such experiences, yours may be the most unique and original commentary regarding the topic that I’ve seen yet. Bravo, and I’ll certainly be returning to this comment at a later time and date.

Re: LSD and psilocybin increase the fractal dimension of brain activity

#83
post #77

Totally separate from whatever this paper is claiming, I'm already dreading a conversation at some future party in which some person rambles on regarding a very unscientific understanding of this paper and something about burning man.

You might get lucky and someone will bend your ear about Terence McKenna and Machine Elves

Re: LSD and psilocybin increase the fractal dimension of brain activity

#84
post #43
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will psychedelics be ‘a revolution in psychiatry’? https://www.nature.com/articles/d41573-021-00087-7 The Yale Manual for Psilocybin-Assisted Therapy of Depression (using Acceptance and Commitment Therapy as a Therapeutic Frame) https://psyarxiv.com/u6v9y “Trial of Psilocybin versus Escitalopram for Depression“, https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994 Effects of Psilocybin-Assisted Therapy on Major Depres…

Great, thanks for the objective response. My inquiry was substantially downvoted. How can one determine if they are at risk of psychosis prior to consuming LSD? I've heard many stories of people who were "never the same" (in a bad life-outcome sense) after having bad LSD trips. It wasn't clear from family history or medical history that they were at-risk for such a reaction. At least based on these outcomes, it might…

The idea that someone took LSD and "was never the same" is a common trope, but I doubt it's based much on fact. I wrote a paper years ago in college about the difference between what "public education" about LSD said and what the medical literature said (I attended a university with a good medical school and a good medical library), and the short version is that federally-funded "public education" about LSD was mostly a lot of scare stories made up to serve someone's social or political agenda. They had little or no basis in fact.

Things like that get repeated, though. People like to repeat scare stories. I wouldn't be surprised if that's where most of the "never the same" stories come from.

I will admit that I took LSD quite a few times at the end of the 1970s, and that at the peak of that period I spent a month or two in a fairly confused and impressionable state. Someone who had known me before and who encountered me during that period might be forgiven for concluding that I would "never be the same". It was temporary, though.

I gave up on psychedelics and other mind-altering substances by the early 1980s. They were no longer showing me anything new. As the fellow said, once you've gotten the message, it's time to hang up the phone.

The literature that I found in the late 70s made LSD look fairly harmless, as long as you were not already psychotic or close to it. That was peer-reviewed research, though, not news stories. It would have been scandalous at that time for anyone in the mainstream press to suggest that LSD was anything less than the scourge of Western Civilization.

Sometime around the late nineties or early 2000s, respectable researchers began to obtain permission to conduct research with psychedelics again, and have gotten some pretty interesting results, especially in areas like treatment of alcoholism, depression, and anxiety. By the way, they don't seem to be finding a lot of civilization-ending dangers in the process. Judging by the medical literature, they just aren't very dangerous.

As far as I know, based both on personal experience and medical literature, the main dangers from psychedelics are that they can be very disorienting and several of them amplify the experience of emotion. Bad trips mostly seem to be a combination of disorientation and fear, with the disorientation becoming frightening, and the fear amplified by the drug so that it becomes terror.

But bad trips end, just like good ones do.

So if you're going to experiment with them, you want to be in a safe place, in a reasonably sane and calm state of mind, and in the company of trustworthy people who have your best interests in mind--preferably mental-health professionals with some experience with psychedelics, if possible.

Re: LSD and psilocybin increase the fractal dimension of brain activity

#85

Anecdata: I once took LSD and went on a bad trip. I "discovered" that everything in the universe is fractal: space, time and causality. Every microsecond of existence contains within itself the whole existence of the universe and at the same time each one of those 'temporal universes' contains other temporal universes, every micrometer contains the whole space, and every moment there are millions of decisions that ta…

Somewhat similar: Based on the fact that if you break a holographic picture in half then the two halves show a fainter representation of the whole and not a left and right portion, I imagined we each contain the whole mind of god, but a faint representation of it, since we are only a part of the whole.

https://www.litiholo.com/blog/2019/10/11/what-happens-when-y...

Re: LSD and psilocybin increase the fractal dimension of brain activity

#86
post #4

Well, yes, adding noise increases the fractal dimension of a signal. "Shannon entropy" is noise. "Lempel-Ziv complexity" is "how long is the zip file".

This is an important description, as when you think of a chemical creating impairment, it is essentially adding noise to signals in your brain, and a lot of the geometric and fractal artifacts we see resemble noise artifacts you would get from interfering with other analogue signals. Given your brain takes sensory signal input and coheres it, impairing that ability is going to create signals-based feedback that is de…

Creating noise in the brain that the nervous system then makes sense of. Interesting theory.

Now if I put my mystical hippie hat on I'm going to ask you what you think noise is? Personally I think it's some fundamental property of the universe.

Re: LSD and psilocybin increase the fractal dimension of brain activity

#88
I never hallucinated after trying shrooms, even at high doses. I found this odd, since I have read about countless people saying they saw stuff that wasn't there or saw colorful fractal geometry.

So my conclusion is that shrooms simply increased my perception and allowed in more information, and that all this fractal geometry is already there, just waiting to be discovered.

It's just like tuning into a higher frequency. It's not fake or generated by the brain, simply observed for what it is.

Re: LSD and psilocybin increase the fractal dimension of brain activity

#89
post #5

Here is interesting study lecture and article, maybe somewhat related. The Geometry and objects of things you see in typical to DMT experiences are hyperbolic. Lecture https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loCBvaj4eSg The Hyperbolic Geometry of DMT Experiences: Symmetries, Sheets, and Saddled Scenes https://qualiacomputing.com/2016/12/12/the-hyperbolic-geomet...

Very interesting indeed. Thank you for sharing. Why on Earth is this being downvoted?

I don't take downvotes personally. I've learned to accept them as meaningless gestures that make people feel powerful and in control, when infact no-one is really in control here. We're all acting :)

Re: LSD and psilocybin increase the fractal dimension of brain activity

#90
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great, thanks for the objective response. My inquiry was substantially downvoted. How can one determine if they are at risk of psychosis prior to consuming LSD? I've heard many stories of people who were "never the same" (in a bad life-outcome sense) after having bad LSD trips. It wasn't clear from family history or medical history that they were at-risk for such a reaction. At least based on these outcomes, it might…

The idea that someone took LSD and "was never the same" is a common trope, but I doubt it's based much on fact. I wrote a paper years ago in college about the difference between what "public education" about LSD said and what the medical literature said (I attended a university with a good medical school and a good medical library), and the short version is that federally-funded "public education" about LSD was mostl…

What about people who've committed suicide on LSD? Was this an overblown old wives tale?
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