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Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

nytimes.com

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Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#81

Post by briandear »

mjmahone17 wrote: post #20
kbelder wrote: post #12

I honestly think they were compromised from the very beginning, with their mission of "defending every civil right... except the 2nd amendment, we don't like that one." But they still fought lots of commendable battles, sticking up for people that nobody else would. I think that's what they've lost... they would be scared to stick up for somebody that might get the wrong people upset with them.

It’s probably reasonable for an organization to choose not to conflate the civil liberties they stand for with amendments. In an ideal world the people would happily eliminate or modify laws that do harm, and of the existing US civil liberties, the 2nd amendment is likely the most debatable on whether it is a net win for liberty.

[flagged]

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#82

Post by dv_dt »

briandear wrote: post #76
jacobsenscott wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has never been a society where this is true. Certainly where I live, in the US, free speech is code for "white men are allowed to say whatever they want" while the speech of other groups can be violently repressed without consequence.

Except that isn’t true. The only people being violently repressed at the moment are Capitol protestors who have been held in solitary confinement for months without even being charged. And many of them are white.

I think many a BLM protester was violently repressed even as most of the were peaceful and well within excercise their free speech rights.

For both the 1/6 protesters and BLM protesters there were some subgroup that destroyed property and exceeded what many would consider reasonable speech boundaries - but that is something where it make take some time to fully understand how it plays out individually in legal cases.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#84

Post by billforsternz »

IshKebab wrote: post #66
istorical wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a gay man, I would have been despicable for most of the past 100+ years, but the ACLU would have defended me anyway. That version of the ACLU no longer exists. This precise thing is why it's baffling that people can suggest cancel culture is only something to complain about if you've done / said something wrong. What is considered wrong does not always age well. Sometimes we ourselves are the baddies.

Yeah I think it's interesting to think what people of today will be cancelled for. My best guesses are eating meat, and doing business with China.

Putting people in prison for years

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#85

Post by happytoexplain »

istorical wrote: post #63
nxc18 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same. I was turned off by the “my way or the highway” mentality on trans issues shown in their Twitter. Failure to defend 2A rights, now that NRA is clearly not principled in any way (maybe it never was), also bothered me. It is hard to imagine them defending an anti-trans person in 2021. As despicable as those people are, they still have civil rights. As a gay man, I would have been despicable for most of the past 1…

> As a gay man, I would have been despicable for most of the past 100+ years, but the ACLU would have defended me anyway. That version of the ACLU no longer exists. This precise thing is why it's baffling that people can suggest cancel culture is only something to complain about if you've done / said something wrong. What is considered wrong does not always age well. Sometimes we ourselves are the baddies.

>people ... suggest cancel culture is only something to complain about if you've done / said something wrong

This is an oversimplification. What you might be extrapolating from is the common sentiment that complaining about cancel culture is not substantive in cases where an individual appears to have done something wrong enough to justify the consequences. Yes, "wrong enough" is of varying subjectivity in each case, but focusing on "cancel culture" as some kind of monolithic evil instead of focusing on the details of each case is a very common source of noise, and so is commonly criticized, and that criticism may be what you're accumulating into "cancel culture is only something to complain about if you've done / said something wrong".

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#86

Post by briandear »

seoaeu wrote: post #79
this2shallPass wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have far from an encyclopedic knowledge of the ACLU and it's history, so I could be wrong. I had thought they have in the past done some 2nd amendment cases, and continue to do so. Their position is less strong, maximalist, whatever you want to call it than some other groups e.g. the NRA. They also don't see the need to focus a lot of resources on those types of cases when other groups do that, and effectively.

My recollection is they distanced themselves from gun rights cases after defending some right-wing group's right to hold an armed protest... at which one of the group members murdered a counter protestor.

Exempt that protestor wasn’t killed by a gun. Yet surprisingly, the ACLU hasn’t come out against the automobile.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#87

Post by tpmx »

TrispusAttucks wrote: post #73
jacobsenscott wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has never been a society where this is true. Certainly where I live, in the US, free speech is code for "white men are allowed to say whatever they want" while the speech of other groups can be violently repressed without consequence.

Yet here you are. Using your free speech to spread your anti-white message. Your voice is very repressed indeed. Shame you can't just say what you really want.

Well, now it's flagged so much that it actually is removed. I can only read "[flagged]".

I really dislike this particular HN design decision. Reddit handles this case much better.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#88

Post by jl2718 »

insert_coin wrote: post #83

Free speech is the only “right” that matters. Thoughtcrime should not be allowed to be prosecuted, mob lynching is not justice. But if the ACLU is compromised maybe it is too late.

Well obviously it’s not working so maybe we need some other right to make sure we can retain that one. Hmmm... wonder if anybody thought of that...

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#89

Post by UncleMeat »

baggy_trough wrote: post #9

Despite the sad loss of the ACLU as an institution that cares about civil liberties, we can remain hopeful due to other organizations like FIRE. https://www.thefire.org

FIRE is a joke if you care about bipartisanship.

I know a lot of faculty who have been attacked or even fired for "left wing" research and FIRE hasn't spread a peep. Heck, I know people who've been put on blast by Hannity and received death threats from strangers and had their students call them slurs in legally protected channels just because the kids know they can. Silence from FIRE.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#90

Post by rgbrenner »

nzrf wrote: post #59
Avshalom wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know free speech isn't the only civil liberty right?

Much like they just stay out of 2nd amendment… https://www.aclu.org/blog/civil-liberties/mobilization/aclus... As I support their efforts generally. I find picking and choosing seems counter to the what protecting our civil liberties means in a whole.

Theyve said previously that the reason they mostly stay out of the 2nd amendment is that there's already a well funded organization that has made the 2nd their sole focus. The NRA's budget is larger than the ACLUs.. so it makes sense for them to prioritize other constitutional issues.
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