Live data from Hacker News

Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

livius.org

81–90 of 150 posts

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm currently reading Clive Pointing's 'World History - A new perspective'. >800 pages of well researched history with a large Eurasian focus (due to the availability of sources, not bias). He repeatedly makes the point that some technology that Europe 'discovered' in the 13-19hundreds was in fact known in china 1000+ years earlier. Most of recorded history Europe basically played no role whatsoever. A few examples t…

With all these advantages, why did the industrial revolution happen in Europe instead of Asia?

With all these advantages, why did the mobile revolution happen with Apple instead of Microsoft?

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Herodotus isn't considered reliable at all by historians in any of his writings whether his topic is close geographically or not. Thucydides is a far better option , being at the beginning of the record for the continuous record of reliable historical writing.

I'm a historian and I recently cited Herodotus in one of my forthcoming papers. Is he reliable? We certainly can't assume so. But the same goes for Thucydides and every other source from the ancient world. It's all about triangulating between different sources rather than relying on any one account. In my case, Herodotus was describing a Scythian practice (the use of cannabis) that we've been able to corroborate, in…

Obligatory: I love Hacker News

Not only am I interested to hear that "hot boxing" is an ancient practice, but also the sense of immediacy that I now have with ancient Persia over our shared etymology of kanab.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm currently reading Clive Pointing's 'World History - A new perspective'. >800 pages of well researched history with a large Eurasian focus (due to the availability of sources, not bias). He repeatedly makes the point that some technology that Europe 'discovered' in the 13-19hundreds was in fact known in china 1000+ years earlier. Most of recorded history Europe basically played no role whatsoever. A few examples t…

With all these advantages, why did the industrial revolution happen in Europe instead of Asia?

That is a damn good question that historians still argue over today.

The short version is that the Song dynasty appeared to have all the precursor technology needed for industrialization by the 12th century, but then just didn't. The most commonly held view is probably that society and economics is as important than technology, and that while they at that point had the kind of metallurgy that Europeans could only dream of until the late 18th century, what they didn't have was labor shortages and capitalism, which were what made industrialization something people wanted to actually do. But this is by far not the only proposed explanation.

In general, because of the recent history of the west appears like it, I think we are far too predisposed to view of development as a linear progression towards something, that history has a direction, and that direction is up. For most of history, for most societies, this hasn't really been true. As many societies have spent as long stagnating or even regressing as have advanced. It's just that so long as one advances, eventually it's going to influence it's neighbors, either by taking them over or by having them frantically play catch-up to not be taken over, and so the whole thing has a direction.

This leads to my pet theory for why Europe: Because Europe has managed for almost the entirety of it's history to avoid being conquered by a single empire, so everyone was always afraid of their neighbors, yet there was a solid enough foundation of international law that everyone wasn't at war with all their neighbors all the time. This created both a backdrop that forced states to push to be more powerful, even over entrenched interests, and the conditions where the best way to do this often enough wasn't beating up your neighbors and taking their stuff.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Herodotus isn't considered reliable at all by historians in any of his writings whether his topic is close geographically or not. Thucydides is a far better option , being at the beginning of the record for the continuous record of reliable historical writing.

I'm a historian and I recently cited Herodotus in one of my forthcoming papers. Is he reliable? We certainly can't assume so. But the same goes for Thucydides and every other source from the ancient world. It's all about triangulating between different sources rather than relying on any one account. In my case, Herodotus was describing a Scythian practice (the use of cannabis) that we've been able to corroborate, in…

This is probably outside your wheelhouse, but do you happen to know why the Persian word with a single N would have come into Greek with a reduplicated N?

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#86
post #24

I'm skeptical. No matter how good the Phoenician sailors were, it seems unlikely to me that they could have blithely sailed past Cape Bojador[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Bojador Maybe if they had small enough boats to stick close to the shore and portage. Seafaring on the Mediterranean is simply a lot less complex than it is on the open ocean. The European sailors were not able to pass this point till the 1…

Footnotes are useful to not break the flow of a thought with text that isn't meant to be read. Also, because of the link included at the end of a sentence, you were not able to include the conventional full stop immediately after the last character of the sentence.

Pedantic, off-topic comments also break conversational flow.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#87
"The Histories" by Herodotus is a wonderful read, but it really matters which translation you use. The is the one I read is translated by Robin Waterfield.

https://www.amazon.com/Histories-Oxford-Worlds-Classics/dp/0...

I also have a newer one translated by Tom Holland, and it seems to be a good choice too. This is how Robin Waterford translates the quoted section (Book Four, section 42):

"After all, Libya is demonstrably surrounded by water, except for the bit of it that forms the boundary with Asia. King Nech of Egypt was the first to discover this, as far as we know; after he abandoned the digging of the canal from the Nile to the Arabian Gulf, his next project was to dispatch ships with Phoenecian crews with instructions to return via the Pillars of Hercules into the northern sea and so back to Egypt. So the Phoenicians set out from the Red Sea and sailed into the sea to the south. Every autumn, they would come ashore, cultivate whatever bit of Libya that had reached in their voyage, and wait for harvest time; then, when they had gathered in their crops, they would put to sea again. Consequently it was over two years before they rounded the Pillars of Hercules and arrived back in Egypt. They made a claim which I personally do not believe, although someone else might - that as they were sailing around Libya they had the sun on their right."

Notice that the tone of this translation is informal, which is partly why it is an enjoyable read. But notice also the key difference in the final sentence: the one used in the article (de Selincourt) adds "to the North of them". This is missing from Waterfield and Holland. I suspect that de Selincourt added this as a clarification. I assume he took other liberties in his translation too.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#88
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Up until recently I did not know there was a way out from the Great Lakes into the ocean that does not involve going up North all the way through St. Lawrence. You can go through the Welland canal and shortcuts and end up going down South.

You can also go out the Chicago River and down the Mississippi. There is a path called "The Great Loop" which takes you around the entire eastern United States. (well, most people skip New England and Mississippi (the state), but you could include them if you wanted.) https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/great-loop.html

There used to be a canal that went from lake erie all the way down to the ohio river

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#89
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The industrial revolution was as much a product of economics as technology. If wages for lower-class workers hadn't been nearly so high, the technology might have come and gone without making much of a ripple. In fact, there's an argument to be made that it once did exactly that. Steam-powered machines were known to the Romans, and seen as a stupid novelty. Disclaimer: I don't know English history well enough to put…

You are completely ignoring philosophy. It was the ideas of freedom, of the possibility of liberty for all, of equality of men, that made the whole enterprise possible. China had the tools, sure. But not the incentives. Their emperor could not let lose a zoo of creativity, for fear of destruction of the empire.

This kind of smacks of euro-centrism. Especially considering how the West at that time had colonies that practiced chattel slavery, producing vast wealth for the owners of the colonies.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#90
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Footnotes are useful to not break the flow of a thought with text that isn't meant to be read. Also, because of the link included at the end of a sentence, you were not able to include the conventional full stop immediately after the last character of the sentence.

we're going off topic here, but i always feel like comments like yours assume that I'm a complete idiot and don't know anything and need to be told something obvious :) what you say is so obvious, I'd prefer that you read your comment first as representing the generally held wisdom I'm arguing against, and then interpret my comment as a riposte to that. My point was that, and this applies to printed books also, what…

You call it the most interesting thing I've read all day, I call it boring bikeshedding, but I won't downvote it regardless.
Post reply on HN