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If Apple is the only organisation defending our privacy, it is time to worry

theguardian.com

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Re: If Apple is the only organisation defending our privacy, it is time to worry

#81

Post by trapped »

threatofrain wrote: post #55
landryraccoon wrote: post #25

I see a bunch of comments talking about how Apple is being self serving and not at all altruistic when they defend our privacy. And my response is - well duh. And this is supposed to be a problem how? Apple wants my money and nothing else. They aren't motivated to protect my privacy out of the goodness of their hearts. I am happy to pay money for more privacy. The fact that they only do this because they want my mone…

The willingness to pay big for privacy is a signal that you are an interesting person to track.

Privacy is fundamental human right. Don't need to be interesting person.

Re: If Apple is the only organisation defending our privacy, it is time to worry

#82

Post by spacedcowboy »

actuator wrote: post #70
Gaelan wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That tweet's been deleted, so it's hard to judge it exactly, but my recollection is that someone else pointed out "payment data" here is just App Store, iTunes, etc purchases. "Apple targets ads on the app store based on previous app store purchases" is, IMO, much less of a privacy invasion than "Facebook targets ads based on your friends list, messages, browsing history, real-life purchases, and other things I can't…

I updated the link above. I am not sure how much information Apple gets but if with an in app purchase of say a eBook, they get to know which eBook it was, it is creepy. Apple really doesn't have to do any ad personalisation but still they are doing it as it is just more money for them. My fear is, eventually when they monetize more of their web properties, the data collection will increase. While they might not allo…

If you've chosen to buy something from Apple, it's hard for Apple not to know that you've bought it.

I don't think that's an issue.

What is an issue is the cross-correlation of any given company's data on you with lots of other "big data" companies, building a profile, not just of what you've bought from X, but from Y, Z, hell throw in the whole alphabet, why not ?

Then there's the machine learning that says when X,Y,Z are all bought within a small time window, that means alpha is likely, and decisions can be made on that basis.

It's the spread of the network that is the problem, IMHO, not the knowledge per se. My butcher knows what cuts of meat I like, there's no need for my cobbler to be aware...

Re: If Apple is the only organisation defending our privacy, it is time to worry

#83

Post by isodev »

spoonjim wrote: post #40
landryraccoon wrote: post #25

I see a bunch of comments talking about how Apple is being self serving and not at all altruistic when they defend our privacy. And my response is - well duh. And this is supposed to be a problem how? Apple wants my money and nothing else. They aren't motivated to protect my privacy out of the goodness of their hearts. I am happy to pay money for more privacy. The fact that they only do this because they want my mone…

Microsoft definitely sells privacy to business customers. For consumers they are probably just trying to lead gen for business sales.

Microsoft’s privacy efforts are limited to what’s minimally required to achieve certain data storage or other compliance conformance.

Even worst, consumer products like Windows 10 and tools like Visual Studio Code come with extensive telemetry and tracking enabled by default. Remember recently the office 365 fiasco when they thought it will be ok to track employees and make reports out of it?

Re: If Apple is the only organisation defending our privacy, it is time to worry

#84

Post by techrat »

newscracker wrote: post #18
null_object wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just denying them permissions, which in many cases just cause apps to refuse to function. Factual question: which apps in your experience "refuse to function" when you deny them permission to track you?

That’s a hold out from the Android world, where apps are generally written to expect the user to provide requested permissions. Before Android 6, apps would get all permissions requested for on installation (or the user wouldn’t be able to install the app). From Android 6, when the permission model changed to be similar to iOS to get it at runtime, apps didn’t get written for this new world and would crash or refuse…

I deny functions to apps in Android all the time. I've yet to run into an app that will refuse to run unless that denied function is explicitly needed for that app to do what it was designed to do: eg, location for maps.

Re: If Apple is the only organisation defending our privacy, it is time to worry

#85

Post by actuator »

spacedcowboy wrote: post #82
actuator wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I updated the link above. I am not sure how much information Apple gets but if with an in app purchase of say a eBook, they get to know which eBook it was, it is creepy. Apple really doesn't have to do any ad personalisation but still they are doing it as it is just more money for them. My fear is, eventually when they monetize more of their web properties, the data collection will increase. While they might not allo…

If you've chosen to buy something from Apple, it's hard for Apple not to know that you've bought it. I don't think that's an issue. What is an issue is the cross-correlation of any given company's data on you with lots of other "big data" companies, building a profile, not just of what you've bought from X, but from Y, Z, hell throw in the whole alphabet, why not ? Then there's the machine learning that says when X,Y…

As far as I read the support doc, it seems like if say I purchase an ebook from a third party App, should Apple have this data because they mandated the forced use of their payment system. (I don't like user profiles based on purchase data from their store itself as well)

In this example, Apple is not just the store but also your payment processor(a forced one at that). So, they know about which cuts of meat you like and will use that info to target ads when your cobbler pays for some advertisement.

It is not like FB is selling your data, why would they when they earn the most by keeping it to themselves. Quite sure, Apple will do the same thing like they have already started.

Re: If Apple is the only organisation defending our privacy, it is time to worry

#86

Post by techsupporter »

trapped wrote: post #35
Synaesthesia wrote: post #17

There's still a huge elephant in the room. How are we supposed to trust Apple, Microsoft or any other tech company when it emerged that they fully cooperated with the NSA and their PRISM program. We have to just assume that's still running. Businesses could keep a lot of secrets from us and they're not transparent or accountable to the public.

How do you suggest any corporation to not cooperate with government agencies? For US based businesses it's illegal, right? And, how's this Apple's problem or fault? Vote and elect your interest. If you live in democratic country then vote and elect sensible smart honest representatives who will protect your interest.

To me, this is the most accurate point.

When people are upset that a company violates their privacy with the government of their country, I feel as though their ire is misplaced.

We had a time in United States history when companies were essentially more powerful than the government that organized the structures in which they operated. John Rockefeller, through Standard Oil, became the wealthiest and most powerful single individual in the entire world. He routinely told governments to pound sand. He was a kind and generous person to those whom he felt deserving or who treated him well. He was ruthless to those whom he felt had slighted him or stood in his way. I don't want to go back to that.

Does it frustrate me that my government is essentially spying on me? Yes! Can I hold Apple responsible for that? Not for my government having made those decisions, no. That's asking that Apple be stronger than my government when, given a choice, I'd rather have an elected government operating transparently in free elections than a company that's primarily responsible to its owners.

Apple can very much fight this fight on behalf of its customers. Every time Apple refuses to write backdoors into its products at the behest of a law enforcement agency here, Apple is taking on that fight. Apple will sometimes lose that fight, as it is currently losing in China. Apple, as a participant in United States society, will sometimes win that fight, too. But ultimately it comes down to the decisions that our government(s) make.

Re: If Apple is the only organisation defending our privacy, it is time to worry

#87

Post by quenix »

ashneo76 wrote: post #68
landryraccoon wrote: post #25

I see a bunch of comments talking about how Apple is being self serving and not at all altruistic when they defend our privacy. And my response is - well duh. And this is supposed to be a problem how? Apple wants my money and nothing else. They aren't motivated to protect my privacy out of the goodness of their hearts. I am happy to pay money for more privacy. The fact that they only do this because they want my mone…

If that is the case, the please stop glorifying every single apple IPhone or product release like it is a gift from god and that Steve jobs and Tim cook can do no wrong.

Straw man. Who does that?

Re: If Apple is the only organisation defending our privacy, it is time to worry

#88

Post by fartcannon »

spoonjim wrote: post #40
landryraccoon wrote: post #25

I see a bunch of comments talking about how Apple is being self serving and not at all altruistic when they defend our privacy. And my response is - well duh. And this is supposed to be a problem how? Apple wants my money and nothing else. They aren't motivated to protect my privacy out of the goodness of their hearts. I am happy to pay money for more privacy. The fact that they only do this because they want my mone…

Microsoft definitely sells privacy to business customers. For consumers they are probably just trying to lead gen for business sales.

Microsoft's privacy policy for sharepoint says thst Microsoft employees have accesss to all data in sharepoint.

So Microsoft's privacy is worth as much as its poorest paid employee with access.

Re: If Apple is the only organisation defending our privacy, it is time to worry

#89

Post by esclerofilo »

igornadj wrote: post #64
landryraccoon wrote: post #25

I see a bunch of comments talking about how Apple is being self serving and not at all altruistic when they defend our privacy. And my response is - well duh. And this is supposed to be a problem how? Apple wants my money and nothing else. They aren't motivated to protect my privacy out of the goodness of their hearts. I am happy to pay money for more privacy. The fact that they only do this because they want my mone…

I completely agree, and would love to see a competitor to Apple in terms of privacy focus. I think the reason we don't see it from competitors is that Apple is years ahead of everyone else in terms of customer experience, and privacy is part of that experience, so they focus on it. You just have to look at how many different models of phones Samsung sell vs how many Apple sell to see how unfocused Apple's biggest com…

There are competitors: The Linux phones (pinephone, librem). In fact, privacy has been one of the selling points of desktop Linux forever. The problem is it doesn't sell, or at least it hasn't till now.

This is what Apple is trying to change, basically convince people (through ads) that they need to care about their privacy, because they know it's a competitive advantage they have when compared to the other big companies.

Re: If Apple is the only organisation defending our privacy, it is time to worry

#90

Post by IntelMiner »

igornadj wrote: post #64
landryraccoon wrote: post #25

I see a bunch of comments talking about how Apple is being self serving and not at all altruistic when they defend our privacy. And my response is - well duh. And this is supposed to be a problem how? Apple wants my money and nothing else. They aren't motivated to protect my privacy out of the goodness of their hearts. I am happy to pay money for more privacy. The fact that they only do this because they want my mone…

I completely agree, and would love to see a competitor to Apple in terms of privacy focus. I think the reason we don't see it from competitors is that Apple is years ahead of everyone else in terms of customer experience, and privacy is part of that experience, so they focus on it. You just have to look at how many different models of phones Samsung sell vs how many Apple sell to see how unfocused Apple's biggest com…

>the reason we don't see it from competitors is that Apple is years ahead of everyone else in terms of customer experience

If I might offer a less glowing perspective

Apple is a highly vertically integrated company unlike anybody else in the "top end" of SV. They don't "need" your data

Facebook only exists as a website, so of course they want to data mine you to death, use psychological tricks to keep your eyeballs scrolling their website so they can shovel ads at you

Google effectively gives away Android. They make money by data mining you for advertisements and through providing a wide array of services (Gmail, Maps, Search etc) to augment the things you do on a day to day, in exchange for the reams of data it provides about you

Amazon doesn't really data mine you nearly as much, since their business is more selling you physical goods (or the dominance of AWS, depending on your point of view)

Microsoft wants to chase after what Google and AWS are doing, though their products feel more like pale imitations than anything. Granted that isn't particularly new for them (Zune vs iPod then is Bing vs Google today)

Apple doesn't "need" your data. They have no reason to. They've created products that effectively half of the first world wants to buy through iPhones and iPads

They've spent two decades working to build themselves an outright fortress. They sell you a phone they make, which runs apps from their app store that requires developers to play by their rules

The amount of money Apple makes simply by collecting its 30% revenue cut on everything done on iPhones alone dwarfs what they could get if they even attempted to muscle in on Google in the ad revenue business

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