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Chiropractors are bullshit

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Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#81

Post by _wldu »

n3storm wrote: post #70
ipaddr wrote: post #23

This article is full of weak proof and elitism. If one is to go back to the 1900s to critize how the practice is formed one must remember the state of medicine. He references this but only to cast a negative light chiropractors by linking them to a time when medicine practices lack the scientific base we have now. This statement? "Who the hell peddles (real) medicine out of a kiosk" It is so elitist it out of touch.…

Is your eye doctor an ophtalmologist, optometrist or other (or both)? In Spain ophtalmologist, like physiotherapist has studied medicine and specialized. But optometrists has not and maybe you are comparing a chiropractors (without medicine title) with optometrists.

This is true in America too.

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#82

Post by briantakita »

mellosouls wrote: post #67
geocrasher wrote: post #49

I've lived both sides of this. I once went to a chiropractor for back issues and he made me seriously worse and it took months to recover because what he thought just needed to be put in was actually a herniated disc. Fast forward more than a decade and I have an amazing chiropractor. Every time I go there, I walk away feeling better, walking straighter, and in less pain. My daughter also goes there and the chiroprac…

If anything I think it's a shame that the quacks and the Good Guys can share the same title. But it's the same in any profession, isn't it? No. Chiropractic medicine is pseudo-scientific, so inevitably the percentage of quacks will be far greater than in a scientific-based medicine. So not remotely the same.

Everyone claims to be "Science based", yet there is an element of faith that one's worldview is the only correct true worldview while other worldviews are "pseudoscience". It's almost is if fundamentalist religions, with priesthood, are claiming to be "Science based" as a way to have authority over the audience's critical thinking.

If you claim to be "Science based" you have to prove it with your actions. Words are not enough...Vitriolic rants only make you look like the kook...

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#83

Post by spaginal »

I play a lot of hockey and in my younger more competitive years I took a very hard hit to my shoulder that severely dislocated my AC joint.

After seeing a couple doctors, they told me I had many months of recovery ahead, probably surgery to fix it. It made no sense to me, no one would touch this huge bump on my shoulder unless they went to cut me open, which would be significant healing time.

I went to a local myopractor on a recommendation, not quite a chiropractor, but along the same vein. They massaged my upper back and shoulder and set my shoulder in first visit, then scolded me for waiting so long to do it in the first place. They had me come back a few more times to monitor it and reset it if need be, and I was back on the ice in 4 weeks.

That was 20 years ago, I weekly see a myopractor now, and I credit them for keeping my adrenaline junky banged up 40 year old body together in good enough condition to keep doing the crazy stuff.

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#84

Post by hondo77 »

geocrasher wrote: post #49

I've lived both sides of this. I once went to a chiropractor for back issues and he made me seriously worse and it took months to recover because what he thought just needed to be put in was actually a herniated disc. Fast forward more than a decade and I have an amazing chiropractor. Every time I go there, I walk away feeling better, walking straighter, and in less pain. My daughter also goes there and the chiroprac…

> Every time I go there, I walk away feeling better, walking straighter, and in less pain.

So what is your chiro fixing, if you have to keep going back for ten years?

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#86

Post by CarelessExpert »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #59
CarelessExpert wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why we have the scientific method. Shame that the chiropractic "profession" refuses to use it.

That doesn't mean that no chiropractors use it. And even the quackiest quack's “I've seen this problem before, this fixed it” is better than the best doctor's “I've never seen this before, but I can guess what might help”. You can have empiricism without science.

Uhuh.

So the associations who ostensibly regulate this "profession" allow chiropractic practicioners to make absurd claims about curing asthma or hearing loss.

But there's good chiros out there so that makes it all fine!

Got it.

Should we just jump to the No True Scotsman thing, now, or should we go back and forth a bit first?

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#87

Post by 7thaccount »

mellosouls wrote: post #36

A reminder that the national organisation in the UK tried disastrously to censor articles like this through the libel laws: https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Chiropractic_Associat... The author they tried to bankrupt was Simon Singh, author of Fermat's Last Theorem . https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Singh A "furious backlash" to the lawsuit resulted in the filing of formal complaints of false advertising aga…

Simon Singh has a YouTube video on Fermat's last theorem that is a masterpiece of mathematical communication. As someone who is an engineer with a bit of math education (lots of calculus, linear algebra...etc), and who likes applying math, but does not intuitively get it at all to understand what mathematicians talk about, I found he communicated it to where I got the concepts and he fuzed it with the history in a splendid fashion. Great stuff.

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#88

Post by CarelessExpert »

saurik wrote: post #57
CarelessExpert wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just gonna quote the last paragraph in the article (which really should have been the first for folks unwilling to read the whole thing); > I get it, you’re going to occasionally hear a friend say that chiropractic helped him de-clutter his alcove or do 87 sun salutations… but that’s an anecdote, and data is more important, and trustworthy than anecdotes. The data on chiropractic supports that the practice is not…

The problem is that that doesn't actually mean "chiropractors are useless"--as it is too focused on what they are claiming to sell rather than what they are capable of--nor certainly does it mean "doctors are effective" (and, if you actually look at the studies, most of the interventions performed by orthopedic surgeons are apparently at best no better than just getting physical therapy and at worst ridiculously horr…

> The problem is that that doesn't actually mean "chiropractors are useless"

That's true. A blind pig does find an acorn from time to time. :)

Look, you found a chiro that basically did physiotherapy for you for a problem you were experiencing. Great! I'm glad it worked out!

But that doesn't change the fact that the profession at large is 1) founded on a fundamentally pseudo-scientific basis that has no grounding in reality, 2) is absolutely riddled with charlatans who claim to cure basically every human ailment, and 3) the professional associations actively defend those who make these claims rather than insisting on rigorous, evidence based, ethical standards of care.

If chiropractors want to be taken seriously, it's pretty easy: expose your treatments to the rigors of the scientific method, only support those treatments that have demonstrable benefits, and take away the licenses from the fraudsters who prey on those who are desperately suffering and looking for a way out.

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#89

Post by wizzwizz4 »

CarelessExpert wrote: post #86
wizzwizz4 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't mean that no chiropractors use it. And even the quackiest quack's “I've seen this problem before, this fixed it” is better than the best doctor's “I've never seen this before, but I can guess what might help”. You can have empiricism without science.

Uhuh. So the associations who ostensibly regulate this "profession" allow chiropractic practicioners to make absurd claims about curing asthma or hearing loss. But there's good chiros out there so that makes it all fine! Got it. Should we just jump to the No True Scotsman thing, now, or should we go back and forth a bit first?

My attempt at nuance wasn't intended as a rebuttal. I'd pick a random doctor over a random chiro any day.

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#90

Post by kodah »

> I get it, you’re going to occasionally hear a friend say that chiropractic helped him de-clutter his alcove or do 87 sun salutations… but that’s an anecdote, and data is more important, and trustworthy than anecdotes. The data on chiropractic supports that the practice is nothing more than a collection of broken promises and fake medicine.

Anecdata doesn't matter is such a bleak worldview. Technocracy has huge gaps, from how people view, understand, and interpret data to collection and sorting practices. Anecdata helps tell the story of why things don't work or what we missed that does work. It helps us recognize gaps and improve. Technocracy and anecdata are a marriage you cannot rid yourself of because the human worldview, no matter how data rich is fallible.

This author takes issue with holistic medicine. I've heard this argument time and again about chiropractics due to its wonky history and some outlier practitioners. I've rarely run into chiropractors that have told me stuff that aligns with junk. On the other hand, I have ran into a number of Chiros that are more like DOs in the holistic things they ascribe to. I have run into chiropractors that were determined to remedy my issue (I have a crack in my lower column around my sciatic nerve). When the VA started prescribing me pills and couldn't find the crack after numerous MRIs and X-rays I found a chiropractor. When my leg would go numb and I would get shooting pain that put wells of tears in my eyes, he did x-rays, found it, cracked my back and alleviated enough pressure that I could walk. I knew and he reminded me that I had to lose weight, I had to increase my core strength, and I needed to take pride in living again.

I've had numerous people argue with me about what it is that they think he did that helped where the VA fell short and thought palliative care or spinal fusion was their only option. I speak to you with no spinal fusions, and I don't know the science of what he did, but I'm shocked at the audacity that people have to chalk all Chiros up as lunatics and snake oil salespeople.

My point is, it's important to speak concisely about problems, and I know it is difficult to in the moment, but "Chiropractors are bullshit" is on par with someone who has experienced the worst ends of technocracy saying, "Technocracy is bullshit".

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