Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#81

Post by vanderZwan » Sat, May 08, 2021, 3:53 PM UTC

8bitsrule wrote: post #4

Lotta early-rock-history-for-newbs in there, I'll give it that. Dylan's insights - race, payola, manipulation - were already gospel long ago, for example in 1984 in Patrick Montgomery's Rock and Roll: The Early Days (1984). [0] (Despite the resolution) Enjoy! (About the garage-band thing supposedly happening? Not on the radio!) [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL2K-KrtBNs Edit: while I'm on it, if you'd like exper…

> Lotta early-rock-history-for-newbs in there, I'll give it that.

I think this is not giving the article enough credit. It's not just that people are "newbs" to music history, it's also that real music history is buried under manufactured-consent style industry narrative, which the article explicitly points out halfway through:

> the rest is music industry history — something we need to make an discerned effort to divorce from actual music history.

By the time I write this comment, the article has received 1.8k "likes" (or whatever they are called on Medium), and has probably been read by an order of magnitude more people. It pushes back against this narrative.

The fact that you already knew this as a music superfan (or whatever the reason might be) does not reduce the article's value in this regard.

Thanks for the links though!

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#82

Post by crucialfelix » Sat, May 08, 2021, 3:53 PM UTC

ehnto wrote: post #50

crucialfelix wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also regard the term EDM as a specific scene. It absolutely does not encompass the previous 40 years of club culture.

That isn't the implication. I wouldn't even say EDM represents any particular club culture at all, just a shorthand for electronic music in general. If I wanted to refer to a club scene or genre I would use it's actual name and for me at least none of them are called EDM. It's not surprising to me that there are different interpretations of the term and I am not particularly worried about that. It's all muddied up ac…

Well I think names and usage do matter.

Not that Wikipedia is an authority, but note that this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_dance_music

correctly covers the whole fields of music for dancing that is made electronically. I am perfectly content to be in the wider field of Electronic Dance Music.

But this specific initialism of EDM came out of the US music industry, and was never in use prior to that.

Wikipedia notes that the specific term "EDM": > By the early 2010s, the term "electronic dance music" and the initialism "EDM" was being pushed by the American music industry and music press in an effort to rebrand American rave culture.[3]

which is where us ornery old techno bastards come in. We will not be rebranded and renamed. Everybody is welcome to come up with new things and new styles, but you cannot rename a past culture.

Imagine if some industry press decided to rename Rock and Roll to "RNR" and back date all usages to 1959, editing Wikipedia to insert their new term in there and push their newly branded marketing channels (eg. https://edm.com/ )

Underground dance music has been fiercely against the mainstream music industry. We had different distributors, different press, different rules. This EDM term and this AOR (Adult Oriented Rock) over replicas of classic 909 house beats is the kind of thing that what we spent our whole lives fighting against.

So I hope that explains why we object to that particular the term, as strange and as petty as it may sound. It's political.

Remain Underground https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5t0l2aOW2o

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#83

Post by vanderZwan » Sat, May 08, 2021, 4:00 PM UTC

> Whatever Hendrix was, he was the only performer capable of reconciling the broken, racially-charged, and dichotomized state of rock ’n’ roll.

I guess the author forgot for a moment who Prince was when they wrote that sentence

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#84

Post by tarsinge » Sat, May 08, 2021, 4:09 PM UTC

stuart78 wrote: post #41

I think that the narrative of last twenty years has been a re-blending of genre in a way that is not fully appreciated. While you can certainly find plenty of music that fits the mold established in the 60s, 80s or 90s around you also find much more at the top of the charts that challenges those categories. Right now the top 10 Billboard chart includes Lil Nas X and The Weeknd, neither of whom fits comfortably in the…

That's my take too. Also for The Weeknd it's especially true with early releases, like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPp5Ty9EE6k. On the hip hop side Lil Peep (RIP at 22 unfortunately) is also typical of that blend, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAMgQQMZ9Lk or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOujzvtwZ6M, with a huge 90's alt rock vibe.

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#85

Post by l-_l-_l-_lo_ol » Sat, May 08, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

In the age of computation I think the real dichotomy is between rhythm-focused loop-based composition and music made by people playing instruments. It's easy to see why hip-hop and technology is winning: it's easier music to make. Why compose minutes of music when you can compose 20 seconds and loop it? Or sample it altogether? Why spend thousands of ours learning an instrument?

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#86

Post by WarOnPrivacy » Sat, May 08, 2021, 4:40 PM UTC

antihero wrote: post #42

llamataboot wrote: post #3

I often reflect on the similiarities to that and how techno and house became EDM. When I started going to Midwestern raves in the 1990s they were literally some of the first fully integrated places I hung out in. Definitely some of the Detroit techno parties we went too, some of the first places where it was a majority Black space. EDM now is thought of as this totally white music, all electronic music really, by eve…

You know, techno parties (and illegal raves) like the ones you talk about are still happening, especially here in Europe. EDM is pure garbage and rife with narcissism.

I think of EDM as a dance tool (not a criticism). It's practical, a tight design to serve a specific purpose.

FTR I've adored techno my entire life - from back when synth, industrial and underground were more common labels.

eg: Eno, Cluster, Tim Blake, Sensation's Fix, Klaus Schulz, anything produced by Conny Plank

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#87

Post by WarOnPrivacy » Sat, May 08, 2021, 4:55 PM UTC

I personally don't feel music has to be anything.

Some music would just come to me (Gong, Sensation's Fix) and some I had to meet half way or more (Can, early Kluster).

Some groups like Negativland aren't very tonal. Are they music? Who cares. It occupies the same space and will make it's own changes in our brain, if allowed.

Ultimately, music is what it is.

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#88

Post by wolverine876 » Sat, May 08, 2021, 5:34 PM UTC

TomSwirly wrote: post #51

stuart78 wrote: post #41

I think that the narrative of last twenty years has been a re-blending of genre in a way that is not fully appreciated. While you can certainly find plenty of music that fits the mold established in the 60s, 80s or 90s around you also find much more at the top of the charts that challenges those categories. Right now the top 10 Billboard chart includes Lil Nas X and The Weeknd, neither of whom fits comfortably in the…

To compare this to the 1950s is... very strange. For listeners, the broadening of access to the full diversity of music between 1950 and 1990 was unprecedented in history and will never happen again, simply due to the rise of technology, and the sudden access to all the traditions of the world within a single generation. > Lil Nas X and The Weeknd, neither of whom fits comfortably in the genre they are assigned to by…

This widens my immediate perspective, thanks. One can get caught up in the topic as framed.

And great points: > "Not fitting comfortable into a genre" is so bland a compliment!"

> Steve Reich wrote several pieces of tape music (processed tape recordings) back in the 70s that were a huge hit (in avant circles), but then he went to study in Ghana and decided that this was a mistake. He felt that the purpose of music was for humans to play and sing together as a group activity, and that pre-recorded music did not fulfill this very deep human need.

That is very interesting. (Also, I've only heard Reich's music live, but I've never played along.) In folk music, it is a core belief (long ignored): It's music for folks. Woody Guthrie's songs were written so anyone could play or sing them, as I understand the story. His successors often played more complicated and challenging stuff, much that ordinary people couldn't hope to perform or isn't singalong music. It's hard to imagine sitting around a bar or a living room or out under the stars, singing 'Like a Rolling Stone' together.

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#89

Post by wolverine876 » Sat, May 08, 2021, 5:53 PM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #23

The article makes a very strenuous effort to make a point about something something racism in rock that sounds a bit boring and trite to my ears. After all, Bon Scott said it best years ago: In the beginning Back in nineteen fifty five Man didn't know 'bout a rock 'n' roll show And all that jive The white man had the schmaltz The black man had the blues No one knew what they was gonna do But Tchaikovsky had the news…

I didn't know metal was so big in Athens, Greece. Thanks.

> So why didn't the black grasroots ever sprout an analogous new rock scene, instead of turning towards the mainstream, big stage, light show, for-profit music that comes from black artists for the last few decades?

For me, that's like asking, 'why didn't Van Gogh ever develop something innovative, like the abstract artists, instead of painting in his popular impressionist style?'.

Is there any subculture in the world that has invented more music on the grassroots level than African-Americans? There's jazz, blues, gospel, turntableism (i.e., two turntables and a microphone), rap, techno (yes, created by African-Americans in Detroit), and all their derivatives: R&B, soul, hip-hop, etc. etc.

All of that began at the grassroots. Just because people aren't inventing rock genres, doesn't mean they aren't inventing musical genres - does that need to be said? Just because you hear it now on the big stage doesn't mean it was born there, or that there isn't grassroots innovation still going on that you don't see.

> The article makes a very strenuous effort to make a point about something something racism in rock that sounds a bit boring and trite to my ears.

White people's skepticism of racism, every time it's mentioned, is tired and old - as old as racism, I suppose.

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#90

Post by [deleted] » Sat, May 08, 2021, 5:53 PM UTC

SyzygistSix wrote: post #76

llamataboot wrote: post #3

I often reflect on the similiarities to that and how techno and house became EDM. When I started going to Midwestern raves in the 1990s they were literally some of the first fully integrated places I hung out in. Definitely some of the Detroit techno parties we went too, some of the first places where it was a majority Black space. EDM now is thought of as this totally white music, all electronic music really, by eve…

>But for some of those years in the 1990s it really felt like we were living in the future. It certainly felt like it. But people were quickly put back in their place.

[deleted]