How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning • Hacker News Board

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#81

Post by light_hue_1 » Fri, May 07, 2021, 4:47 AM UTC

HenryKissinger wrote: post #14

In some countries, like France and the United kingdom, the educational pyramid is even more skewed. In the United kingdom, graduates of Oxford University and Cambridge University are in a class of their own. Oxbridge alumni are overrepresented in politics, business, and the media. In France, the same phenomenon is at work with the École Polytechnique, the Écoles Normales Supérieures, and a few others. This creates sh…

> Donald Trump's election in 2016 has been dissected and explained hundred different ways. But it is undeniable that his victory (despite the fact that he lost the popular vote by approximately three million) is attributable in part to popular resentment against political and business elites

It's very deniable. This simply cannot be the explanation.

Trump is an elite. He inherited vast amounts of money and vastly underperformed with them. He went to an Ivy, Wharton at UPenn. Sure, he sounds like an idiot, but it's undeniable that he is part of the political, educational, and business elite. The idea that this is a movement against elites when it is literally spearheaded by an elite is just absurd.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#82

Post by caseysoftware » Fri, May 07, 2021, 4:48 AM UTC

hardwaregeek wrote: post #45

As a current student, I see this first-hand. I go to a school that is moderately prestigious, but not well known for CS. Far too many of my classmates are obsessed with the same hamster wheel of optimizing grades, superficial extracurriculars and rec letter chasing. This isn't surprising; it's what got them into this school in the first place. Unfortunately for them it's also quite useless in tech. Some of them go as…

Years ago, I was advising the "entrepreneur club" at a major university and I met with one of the students. He introduced himself as "president" and we chatted and talked out their Vision. A week later, I met with him and another member who introduced herself as "president"

Slightly confused, I asked if they'd just had an election. Nope. Turns out they called their members "president" which looked great on their resumes.

I was impressed they gamed it so simply.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#83

Post by huitzitziltzin » Fri, May 07, 2021, 4:52 AM UTC

molesy wrote: post #18

sashavegas wrote: post #13

Consider old Russian system After 8 years of school there were exams (written and spoken) where person would be selected to go to 2 more years of school (equivalent of hi school) or if he performs poorly on exam, he can go to professional school for associated degree. The person who goes to 2 more years of hi school, take exam again, and receive diploma. Then the person can apply to any university, but to get there i…

https://arxiv.org/abs/1110.1556

Nice paper.

Another example of the corruption of the Russian system which I have heard (quite likely apocryphal) follows: a female student is taking an oral exam in front of her teacher. (These exams are or can be one on one.) The teacher indicates that the student should unzip her dress or she will receive a low score. She is extremely uncomfortable but attempts to comply. The zipper gets stuck. She says “I’m sorry, but it doesn’t go any lower.” The teacher replies with “Then I can’t go higher than a 3!” (Exams in Russia are out of 5.)

You can complain about the SAT all you want (and I won’t defend it) but it doesn’t have that particular disadvantage.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#84

Post by analognoise » Fri, May 07, 2021, 4:52 AM UTC

planet-and-halo wrote: post #10

Anatole_maarika wrote: post #4

Something that keeps me up at night is my fear that I only studied computer science and became a programmer because of economic and status reasons. I do feel incredibly lucky to have the job and freedom I do, but it drains me. And now I feel it's such a specialized education and I didn't explore enough to know anything else, and so I have no idea if I would have liked something completely different.

You may not be in school any more, but you can still study whatever you want. I went the other direction: studied humanities in school, taught myself programming once I was working as a professional because I found it intriguing, and now I do this for a living. You have a whole lifetime. If you want to learn something, you can do it. Even Einstein got started in his spare time.

Einstein was 12 when he started learning calculus; the myth that he was bad at math as a child is just that (a myth).

Einstein didn't "get started in his spare time" - thoughts about the universe consumed him as a person, to the point where him being "absent minded" was because he was visualizing the universe; his love letters even contained frequent discussions of science. His brain was preserved after his death, and there's been actual work done by multiple groups, with indications he was structurally different than a normal brain.

Einstein did NOT just get started "in his spare time". At all.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#85

Post by dehrmann » Fri, May 07, 2021, 4:56 AM UTC

adventured wrote: post #33

At least in the US, the university system has become another enormous mid upper-class handout scheme, much like healthcare. It's governed and protected much as a cartel might protect its turf. Again as with healthcare, all you have to do is look at who got all the money from the cost of education hikes - where did it all go - over the past two decades. We know where it went, we know who got that money. There is nobod…

For both healthcare and college, a handout to whom?

> It's governed and protected much as a cartel might protect its turf.

By price fixing? You'd have a stronger point college is a racket because you need it to get a good job, and there aren't viable alternatives, though that implies more collusion between employers and colleges than there actually is.

> We know where it went, we know who got that money.

Again, this isn't obvious. Part of the increase in the price of college is because room, board, and amenities have gotten better, and easy access to student loans have accommodated this. This isn't a "handout," though.

Healthcare is somewhat similar in that the fee-for-service model led to higher costs, but it came about in a very natural way, and it's more about patient expectations and liability than handouts.

> There is nobody willing to do anything about it

Purdue hasn't raised tuition in 10 years. That's something.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#86

Post by light_hue_1 » Fri, May 07, 2021, 4:58 AM UTC

flowerlad wrote: post #43

College admissions in the US are messed up. There is no way for a student to be in control of their destiny through hard work, because there are far too many variables and randomness in college admissions. Ideally what colleges should do is to use a standardized test and go strictly by the results of the standardized test. Standardized tests are not perfect, but if there are flaws in standardized tests then fix them,…

> Ideally what colleges should do is to use a standardized test and go strictly by the results of the standardized test. Standardized tests are not perfect, but if there are flaws in standardized tests then fix them, because it is better than the alternatives

Standardized tests are terrible. Predicting the outcomes of standardized tests is very simple, it's a function of your parents income. https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/sat-scores-and... With a 0.95 R^2.

Simply put, standardized tests would make sure that only rich people go to good schools.

> Other countries such as UK use test scores for college admissions. At one time the US too used scores. But US colleges introduced subjective criteria ("holistic reviews") because far too many Jewish people were getting admitted when they used objective criteria. (

No. That's not what happened. This is the history according to the National Educational Association: https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-change/new-from-nea/racis...

In the beginning, US colleges did not use standardized tests. A well-known racist who was against the "intermingling of races" created standardized tests to exclude races he did not like. And for the most part, it worked beautifully, except that too many Jews were getting in, so they added other criteria on top. The idea of standardized tests exists because of racism. It was recognized by its inventor to be a tool for racism and classism.

> Other countries such as UK use test scores for college admissions

Yeah, how's that going? Notice who gets into Oxford and Cambridge? It's not really the lower classes. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/... Only 20% of Cambridge students are eligible for a grant that takes 50% more than the median income to get. https://www.varsity.co.uk/news/16287 That means that they overwhelmingly come from families with very high income.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#87

Post by WalterBright » Fri, May 07, 2021, 5:02 AM UTC

hardwaregeek wrote: post #76

hzay wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The kid who returned user's passed hash -- he could have simply learned more about better programming practices no? You make it sound like it's a crime and he's inherently flawed. But all of us did dumb mistakes in school/college in our early programming days, and then most of us learned not to do them.

Yeah that was maybe not the best example. Although I did explain it to him a couple times and he still didn't get it. He also didn't do his share of work but of course took credit for the accomplishments of the group in his college applications. What I was trying to point it is that these students used these supposedly impressive accomplishments in the college applications when really they didn't do much at all.

> when really they didn't do much at all

That's where the in-person interview comes in. It's a lot harder to fake one's way through that.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#88

Post by bo1024 » Fri, May 07, 2021, 5:07 AM UTC

adventured wrote: post #33

At least in the US, the university system has become another enormous mid upper-class handout scheme, much like healthcare. It's governed and protected much as a cartel might protect its turf. Again as with healthcare, all you have to do is look at who got all the money from the cost of education hikes - where did it all go - over the past two decades. We know where it went, we know who got that money. There is nobod…

> who got all the money from the cost of education hikes

Can you recommend a source on this? My first guess is construction companies and football coaches.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#89

Post by duxup » Fri, May 07, 2021, 5:10 AM UTC

I had some very smart and capable friends who exceled at school.

I did not, I dropped out for a variety of reasons.

But entering the workforce things changed.

I thrived, I easily solved problems, and enjoyed what I thought of as "real work".

Many of my friends did not. They seemed to thrive in the comfort of a syllabus, clear and defined paths to positive reinforcement, and status... but work isn't generally like that.

You're not told what to do, exactly how and to reproduce it, you need to find that out yourself, and you will fail, maybe often...

I had similar experiences with interns who when given an assignment and told they were to do their best and see what resources they could put together.... seemed lost without a specific set of step by step instructions...

Everyone did fine in the end, but the differences were striking to me.

Amusingly I think I'd love to go back to school now, I'd think much differently of it now than I did at the time.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#90

Post by hardwaregeek » Fri, May 07, 2021, 5:11 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #87

hardwaregeek wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah that was maybe not the best example. Although I did explain it to him a couple times and he still didn't get it. He also didn't do his share of work but of course took credit for the accomplishments of the group in his college applications. What I was trying to point it is that these students used these supposedly impressive accomplishments in the college applications when really they didn't do much at all.

> when really they didn't do much at all That's where the in-person interview comes in. It's a lot harder to fake one's way through that.

The in person interview has little to no bearing on your application. It can provide a minor positive boost but no negative value. Besides, the interviewers I had were all nice enough people but definitely possible to trick or BS.