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Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions and all

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Re: Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions and all

#81

Post by gnicholas »

I hate subscriptions as much as the next guy, but I also see the flip side of this coin: the legacy auto companies don't have OTA updates, and this affects their incentives in negative ways.

I have considered getting a Subaru Outback, a Toyota RAV4, and a Honda CR-V. All of them have 'lane-centering' features, but none of them are good at present. And none of the companies say that they will allow OTA (or any other periodic) updates, even though presumably it would be possible to improve performance without upgrading the hardware.

Why do they do this? Because their business model is to keep selling/leasing new cars. They don't want you to have the newest tech on your older car.

If they had subscriptions for features like these, it would give them a different incentive, which could be good in some cases. It might still be bad on balance (like if they charged huge amounts for these features), but there could be some significant upsides.

Re: Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions and all

#82

Post by AmericanChopper »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #47
Traster wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that you're not going to have this choice. You'll be that guy insisting he wants a phone that's thicker but has better battery life - no manufacturer cares what you want because they have to operate at a scale where they can't cater for niches.

I'm not so sure. Look at the European market: manual gears everywhere. Look at the UK, South African and Autraslian market: the car is inversed, with the wheel on the right. The car market seems way different than the phone market. It's not an information platform, it moves matter. It's not virtual, it's real. It's not luxury like the phone used to be, people life depends on it already. It's not a free market, but he…

> Look at the European market: manual gears everywhere. Look at the UK, South African and Autraslian market: the car is inversed, with the wheel on the right.

These aren’t really great examples of marketing to a niche. Automatic transmissions cost more money, so manuals are more popular than they are in the US in every country that has less disposable income than the US. The primary reason it’s so easy to get a left hand drive car in Australia is because the UK and Japan drive on the left.

Re: Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions and all

#83

Post by dghughes »

obviouslynotme wrote: post #2

I don't want my car to be a software platform. I want it to be like my microwave. It might have software, but software is only incidental to its operation. I do not want to tweet from my microwave. I do not want ads in traffic. This is non-negotiable for safety reasons alone. I don't care what I have to do to attain that. If that means replacing the radio. I will do it. If you brick my car if I don't have a Manufactu…

>If you brick my car if I don't have a Manufacturer Approved radio...

Farmers equipment is being bricked when they try to repair their multi-$100K machinery. It's the food we all eat that is at risk over some software update or a farmer had to perform necessary repairs by swapping a tractor's ECU.

Re: Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions and all

#84

Post by Naac »

gnicholas wrote: post #81

I hate subscriptions as much as the next guy, but I also see the flip side of this coin: the legacy auto companies don't have OTA updates, and this affects their incentives in negative ways. I have considered getting a Subaru Outback, a Toyota RAV4, and a Honda CR-V. All of them have 'lane-centering' features, but none of them are good at present. And none of the companies say that they will allow OTA (or any other p…

I think you're putting way too much faith in these companies.

Just going off of your example, they're most likely just going to provide support for 2 years ( if that ), and then say "sorry, the newest version of lane keep assist isn't available for your model". A la Apple.

Re: Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions and all

#85

Post by smolder »

fmntf wrote: post #56
thesuperbigfrog wrote: post #4

It is only a matter of time before there are jailbreaks and free / open source car operating systems. For related 'food for thought', see Cory Doctorow's "Car Wars" which combines car software hacking with self-driving vehicles for a unique near-future sci-fi story. Edit: downvotes? Instead, you could respond with why you disagree and we can have a discussion. Do you think there will not be jailbreaks? It has been ha…

That's unrealistic. A car contains several ECUs. Each ECU has one or more MCU/CPU. Every core runs its software, 99% of the time documentation is available only under NDA. Reimplementing the software for just one MCU/CPU is challenging even for who is part of the industry.

There have been 3rd party ECUs for decades, "piggyback" fuel and spark controllers which take over functionality of the main ecu, devices to disable rev/speed limiters, custom transmission controllers, and so on. I wouldn't discount the aftermarket's ability to develop something that fulfills owners' needs. (Post-warranty)

Re: Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions and all

#86

Post by tdsamardzhiev »

sz4kerto wrote: post #21
obviouslynotme wrote: post #2

I don't want my car to be a software platform. I want it to be like my microwave. It might have software, but software is only incidental to its operation. I do not want to tweet from my microwave. I do not want ads in traffic. This is non-negotiable for safety reasons alone. I don't care what I have to do to attain that. If that means replacing the radio. I will do it. If you brick my car if I don't have a Manufactu…

> I want it to be like my microwave. Yes. Plus: I want it to be like a simple microwave that does what I need: heats for a certain amount of time at a certain power level. 2 physical knobs.

I'm willing to go further. My parents' microwave has a single knob, and mine has two but I have never used it at something other than "High".

Re: Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions and all

#87

Post by tdsamardzhiev »

radioooooo wrote: post #37
obviouslynotme wrote: post #2

I don't want my car to be a software platform. I want it to be like my microwave. It might have software, but software is only incidental to its operation. I do not want to tweet from my microwave. I do not want ads in traffic. This is non-negotiable for safety reasons alone. I don't care what I have to do to attain that. If that means replacing the radio. I will do it. If you brick my car if I don't have a Manufactu…

> I do not want ads in traffic. This is non-negotiable for safety reasons alone. LMAO! OK, who's gonna tell him about the ads on the radio?

Never understood people complaining of radio ads until I got to hear what American radio is like. They legit play ads after almost every song. Yikes!

Re: Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions and all

#88

Post by AlexandrB »

Naac wrote: post #84
gnicholas wrote: post #81

I hate subscriptions as much as the next guy, but I also see the flip side of this coin: the legacy auto companies don't have OTA updates, and this affects their incentives in negative ways. I have considered getting a Subaru Outback, a Toyota RAV4, and a Honda CR-V. All of them have 'lane-centering' features, but none of them are good at present. And none of the companies say that they will allow OTA (or any other p…

I think you're putting way too much faith in these companies. Just going off of your example, they're most likely just going to provide support for 2 years ( if that ), and then say "sorry, the newest version of lane keep assist isn't available for your model". A la Apple.

We'd be lucky if auto manufacturers supported cars with updates as long as Apple supports hardware (5 years+ in some cases). It'll be more like Android hardware support - you get the version your car shipped with and maybe the next one.

Re: Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions and all

#89

Post by userbinator »

obviouslynotme wrote: post #2

I don't want my car to be a software platform. I want it to be like my microwave. It might have software, but software is only incidental to its operation. I do not want to tweet from my microwave. I do not want ads in traffic. This is non-negotiable for safety reasons alone. I don't care what I have to do to attain that. If that means replacing the radio. I will do it. If you brick my car if I don't have a Manufactu…

I will go rebuild some grandfathered antique car.

The classic car community continues to thrive and the aftermarket has plenty of parts available. My daily driver (perhaps not so daily for the past year or so...) doesn't need any software to start and drive, and that's the way I like it. It doesn't have the fuel efficiency or cleanliness of a modern car, but I guess that's just the cost of freedom and comfort for which I don't mind paying.

...and every time someone brings up the "safety" argument, I tell them that motorcycles are still legal.

Re: Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions and all

#90

Post by tdsamardzhiev »

falcolas wrote: post #43
0xB31B1B wrote: post #29

I think its totally fine for a car maker to charge for OTA updates in a Saas/subscription model. The reality is that software requires long term maintenance and charging subscriptions is the only way to get a lot of the features to work out for the life time of the car. What I am NOT ok with is charging for normal things that do not need to be OTA updated or are not upgrades, like apple carplay (the example in the ar…

> charging subscriptions is the only way to get a lot of the features to work out for the life time of the car. No, no, no. I'm purchasing a car for upwards of $30,000 (and it's always more, between dealer fees, the cars just happening to only have the priciest interiors, salesmen and their pushy pitches, interest on loans, etc.); they don't need another $5 a month for fucking software updates. They can mange it toda…

All the manufacturers will seek innovative ways to milk users, and whenever any of them succeeds, all the rest will follow suit.
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