Live data from Hacker News

Apple reveals more about AirTag stalking protections

fastcompany.com

81–90 of 142 posts

Re: Apple reveals more about AirTag stalking protections

#81

How exactly can stalking protection work with apples claim that the system doesn't provide any outsider or apple themselves the ability to track your airtag? Surely stalking protection is doing exactly that? Couldn't I take a modded/hacked iPhone and track somebody elses tag all day long from near the edge of UWB range? Apples original paper [1] said the signals emitted contained no unique/trackable identifier except…

Nearly zero knowledge of the airtags protocol, but something like this would allow tracking a stalking tag without giving a trackable identifier.

• An AirTag which is seeing an owning device might only be reporting its presence to that device. We can ignore those. (I'm guessing AirTags listen in some limited way, this still works if they don't, it just is always in the separated state.)

• An AirTag which is separated from its owning device will be broadcasting a public key in an "I'm separated" message.

This public key is rotated periodically, but is used for a while. When my phone sees an "I'm separated" message it will send a hash of the public key and a location (encrypted with that key) to Apple central.

If I'm in motion, and continue to see the same public key crying out that it is separated, then it is traveling with me.

Of course everything is way more complicated…

• It probably doesn't just switch to a new public key and stop using the old one, that would let you correlate them, so there is probably some period of overlap to complicate that.

• How to decide when to tell the user about the tag is a complicated problem. If I'm on a train traveling with a tag I don't recognize, I probably don't care. If I change train cars (I'm still in motion, but 98% of the tags around me changed) I might care. If am walking after getting off the train and most of the other tags are gone, except this one, I might care. If it's still with me when I get home, I care.

Re: Apple reveals more about AirTag stalking protections

#82
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, it's easy to buy an old working iPhone on eBay for $30. And size is entirely irrelevant if you're putting it in someone's car. So I think the parent makes a point worthy of discussion. If Apple is providing this protection for Airtags, why aren't they providing it for all devices?

Well, "to be fair", a phone's battery would die in a few days. Airtags are supposed to last for a year. Why work so hard to pretend these things are the same and therefore deserve to have the same protections applied when it is obvious with a few moments of thought that they are completely different things?

Why are you working so hard to pretend they're completely different when it's obvious from a few moments of thought that tracking is tracking, full stop?

If someone wants to stalk you for a couple of days to find out where you live or work or whatever, what does the difference matter of "a few days" vs a "a year"?

I don't understand why you think this isn't something worth discussing. It's a safety issue worth asking about, no?

I find it truly bizarre that this is being downvoted. Especially on HN which is generally so extremely anti-tracking and pro-privacy.

Re: Apple reveals more about AirTag stalking protections

#83

> If you are an iPhone user, for instance, and someone has placed an AirTag on your person, your phone will eventually alert you that an AirTag that isn’t yours has been found “moving with you.” Apple didn’t clarify how quickly or often this alert will arrive, but it did share that it will occur when you arrive at your home (the address stored in your Apple “Me” card) or at certain other locations that your phone has…

"To find out if you're being stalked, buy an iPhone" wheww!

Re: Apple reveals more about AirTag stalking protections

#84
post #81

How exactly can stalking protection work with apples claim that the system doesn't provide any outsider or apple themselves the ability to track your airtag? Surely stalking protection is doing exactly that? Couldn't I take a modded/hacked iPhone and track somebody elses tag all day long from near the edge of UWB range? Apples original paper [1] said the signals emitted contained no unique/trackable identifier except…

Nearly zero knowledge of the airtags protocol, but something like this would allow tracking a stalking tag without giving a trackable identifier. • An AirTag which is seeing an owning device might only be reporting its presence to that device. We can ignore those. (I'm guessing AirTags listen in some limited way, this still works if they don't, it just is always in the separated state.) • An AirTag which is separated…

I think an important part you might’ve missed is that the tag has to be away from its owner to be considered stalking you. If two strangers ride a train together, their air tags won’t be considered stalking each other.

Re: Apple reveals more about AirTag stalking protections

#85
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know where you are, but in the US, if I gave the police a literal GPS coordinate of a stolen good, I still wouldnt expect them to actually go there and find it unless it’s of exceptionally high value (car, etc).

Part of the problem is the GPS resolution, which isn't accurate enough to know exactly which individual on a street has your stuff, or even which house it might be inside. A long while back, on a early Saturday morning, I was awoken by my doorbell and accosted by an angry father of a crying daughter who had had their iPhone stolen by someone at a bar the previous night. Well, "Find My iPhone" showed the dot location…

> The best GPS resolution available to civilians is about 8 meters (26 feet) - and that's under the best, most ideal situation using the best GPS receiver and a large antenna... things a small cell phone in a pocket or bag doesn't have.

I am not sure where you got this from but that is incorrect - the accuracy (or resolution) depends entirely on the number of satellites and/or augmentation systems you're tapped into, and how strong / clear those signals are. It can vary from a few kilometres down to a few centimetres.

Back in the 90's "Selective Availability" was a thing but it has since been removed.

See https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/performance/accuracy/

Also - most modern phones can and do tap into the major providers (Galileo, Glonass, GPS etc), towers, WiFi spots, beacons and use all of these to give a a VERY accurate position of where the device is.

Edit: Might mention I worked first hand on indoor tracking of users, and a warehouse project for optimising worker picking - we were able to easily distinguish where a person was in a busy retail setting down to which section of a clothes rack they were selecting clothes from, and exactly where a worker was in a very interference-heavy (metals) warehouse floor using the above mentioned technologies.

Re: Apple reveals more about AirTag stalking protections

#87
post #86

“Instead, an AirTag that has not paired locally with its iPhone in three days will emit a sound.” Ugh, so if I’m gone for longer than a weekend all my stuff at home is going to start beeping? I’m sure my roommate will love that.

Turn them off before traveling? Maybe Apple will prompt you?

Re: Apple reveals more about AirTag stalking protections

#88
post #86

“Instead, an AirTag that has not paired locally with its iPhone in three days will emit a sound.” Ugh, so if I’m gone for longer than a weekend all my stuff at home is going to start beeping? I’m sure my roommate will love that.

Is this really how it works? This seems like it would be a huge problem.

Re: Apple reveals more about AirTag stalking protections

#89

There are a lot of comments here about how useless these protections are, because A or B already exist, or C works better for stalking. I think most of those comments are missing the real point here. If an Apple product were ever used to stalk - or God forbid, harm - an individual, it would be a big national story. If a Tile or a Samsung tag (or an amazon gps tracker made for stalking) were used in the same way, it w…

Well, if it ridiculously easy to work around, they will probably get flak even earlier, harder, and be legislated to the ground more certainly than otherwise.

I spoke with Frank Wang on a few meetups in Shenzhen many years ago, back when DJI was still kind of a garage company.

Frank had big, nebulous ideas how he will be "engaging the civil society," "stakeholder negotiations," "industry wide self-governance body" blah blah blah to safeguard DJI from troubles.

I told him hiring lobbyists, and talking to officials, or even just making buzz about potential problems is a bad, bad idea.

Lawmakers can't ban things they don't know they can ban... unless you give them an idea.

Same thing with public reaction. People don't get outraged if they don't know why they should be.

In the end it came to that exact outcome, and drones are now in the process of being legislated to the ground, and effectively becoming unflyable by regular people without few kilograms of permits, and licenses.

He wanted to pride DJI on how government compliant, and safe his drones are, but instead just got them banned around every major city.

Re: Apple reveals more about AirTag stalking protections

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that Tile already does this mesh network of crowdsourcing. The issue is that Apple pushes privacy so much that it's bound to be a bigger story when they mess up compared to others, as stated in the OP.

If someone slips an AirTag in your car to stalk you, your own phone would enable your stalker because by default it would automatically update the location of the AirTag, even if you are not an AirTag user. It is a bit different if your stalker used Tile to track you. You'd have to download that app and opt in.

No, you wouldn’t. It would only be necessary for the stalker to do it and then slip the Tile in with your belongings.

Tiles can be marked lost until found by other users with the Tile app.

Post reply on HN