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Surprisingly little alcohol can affect heart rate variability

span.health

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Re: Surprisingly little alcohol can affect heart rate variability

#81

Post by nradov »

serverholic wrote: post #79
nradov wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just a money issue. It would be impractical and unethical to confine study subjects in controlled environments for long periods of time. That's what we would have to do in order to gather reliable data and eliminate confounding factors. Most human nutrition studies are only observational and barely a step above junk science. Don't take them too seriously.

Randomized control trials are done all the time. They can and are done ethically. I don't know where you people are getting the idea that RCTs are unethical.

Proper large scale, long term RCTs have almost never been done in the human nutrition field. In order to really get the "controlled" part of an RCT the researchers have to confine people somewhere that all of their food and beverage intake can be accurately counted. Obviously this is very expensive and researchers can't ethically confine people in controlled environments for years. At most those studies have been done with very small subject counts for a few months at a time: hardly sufficient to obtain reliable results.

So as a practical matter most studies tend to rely on subject reported data, which is notoriously inaccurate. People forget to record little snacks, or don't weigh their portions, or lie about their behavior because they're ashamed.

Re: Surprisingly little alcohol can affect heart rate variability

#82

Post by spekcular »

thinkharderdev wrote: post #77
spekcular wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the studies (cited in that review) that do Mendelian randomization? They seem fairly conclusive in favor of the view that the optimal alcohol intake is zero.

I looked at the paper but I don't understand how they got to that conclusion. There is still a J-shaped relationship between alcohol consumption and coronary heart disease outcomes. Not questioning the conclusion I just don't understand how you get to it from their data (due to my own ignorance).

Researchers are able to say that the J-shaped relationship is a result of factors correlated with alcohol use, instead of the effects of alcohol itself on the body, using a technique called Mendelian randomization.

Here's a summary for the lay reader [0]:

> One way to get around these limitations is through genetic studies. Some people carry a genetic variant that disrupts their ability to metabolize alcohol, causing them to develop skin flushing, irritation and other unpleasant symptoms when they drink alcohol. As a result, they tend to abstain or drink very little. If alcohol was good for heart health, these people should in theory have more heart disease compared to others. Instead, as one large analysis published in BMJ in 2014 found, they have “a more favorable cardiovascular profile and a reduced risk of coronary heart disease than those without the genetic variant.”

> The study concluded: “This suggests that reduction of alcohol consumption, even for light to moderate drinkers, is beneficial for cardiovascular health.”

(One fact not mentioned there is that for this technique to work and identify causality, the distribution of that genetic variant needs to be uncorrelated with all the other relevant variables. To my knowledge, this is true.)

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/10/well/eat/should-we-be-dri...

Re: Surprisingly little alcohol can affect heart rate variability

#83

Post by blunte »

nradov wrote: post #67
blunte wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have worn a Garmin watch with HR monitor for months at a time off and on for the last few years. My resting heart rate while sleeping is typically 64-68 without alcohol and 65-85 after drinking several glasses of wine. There is such a marked difference in RHR in the two scenarios that you could tell if I drank simply by looking at my heart rate chart during the night. Interestingly, I attempted to start running for…

I also wear a Garmin watch with HR monitor. Having a couple glasses of wine with dinner doesn't seem to noticeably change my RHR while sleeping. There are probably differences between individuals. An RHR that gets into the 85 range could indicate a cardiac problem. Might want to get that checked.

Probably due to _significant_ quantity of alcohol... and certainly not a good idea.

Re: Surprisingly little alcohol can affect heart rate variability

#84

Post by niyikiza »

Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #33
herdcall wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems like a non sequitur ("The optimal level of alcohol intake for health and longevity is zero"). All I see in the article you referred (or the original article above) are several (valid) questions about the J shaped association, like confounding factors and survival bias. But these aren't evidence that the optimal level is zero. Merely challenging/speculating about the opposite view is not evidence. Also, as…

That 'alcohol reduces stress' is true short term, its not so much true long term. Think of those nasal sprays that reduce congestion. They absolutely do that, breathe that stuff in and it opens your airway real good, but at the same time it irritates those tissues so when the effect wears off, the airway becomes even more blocked than before because of the inflammation from the irritation. Alcohol does a similar thin…

Is there any evidence that alcohol does it that way? Sincere question.

Re: Surprisingly little alcohol can affect heart rate variability

#85

Post by ulnarkressty »

1_player wrote: post #71
criddell wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you mind sharing your diet changes?

Gone 100% carnivore

Would very much like to try this for myself, but I would rather look for a more sustainable diet. Do you think it was a matter of missing nutrients, or rather intolerance of some sort to the carbohydrate sources?

Re: Surprisingly little alcohol can affect heart rate variability

#86

Post by aksss »

Mordisquitos wrote: post #47
aksss wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For any benefit alcohol gives (heart health, stress level, etc), there are healthier alternatives to accomplish the same or better results.

I'm sure that there are many alternatives that would be healthier than alcohol for any given individual, be it exercise, social and economic stability, CBT, vacation, improved diet, better sleep, etc. However, in societies where alcohol consumption is an engrained feature of ordinary life and social interactions, is it even feasible to encourage every person to implement whichever of the myriad of alternatives would…

As an individual body, there is no benefit that alcohol provides your system that cannot be achieved through healthier means (that I'm aware of - tell me if I'm wrong).

I'm not saying alcohol isn't effective, I'm saying that in all cases there are healthier ways (wiser ways) to achieve the positive effects.

I'm not saying alcohol isn't efficient, I'm saying the work required to implement the healthier methods for the same effects is worth the extra effort.

At the public health level, I don't think there's any harm in condemning alcohol. I'm not saying prohibition, and I enjoy a good tequila or whiskey or wine or beer - it's great stuff. But the least of our members of society - those with the worst problems - are often making their lives worse with alcohol not better. I see no issue in messaging that repeatedly. Responsible and irresponsible people will always drink, but messaging the harm it causes more often could not hurt American society. I don't think that's naive at all. You may be confusing messaging "zero level" with a legal prohibition, and I don't think that's a valid equivalency. Exercise is good for you, abstaining from alcohol is good for you too. Just like abstaining from fast food. It doesn't mean everyone will comply, nor should you expect that. But messaging that this stuff is not healthy seems wise to me. Instead you see a steady drip of "a drink a day may be good for your heart" crap, that is assuredly endorsed and promoted by the beverage industry, and not with the health of society in mind.

Re: Surprisingly little alcohol can affect heart rate variability

#87

Post by watwut »

Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #33
herdcall wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems like a non sequitur ("The optimal level of alcohol intake for health and longevity is zero"). All I see in the article you referred (or the original article above) are several (valid) questions about the J shaped association, like confounding factors and survival bias. But these aren't evidence that the optimal level is zero. Merely challenging/speculating about the opposite view is not evidence. Also, as…

That 'alcohol reduces stress' is true short term, its not so much true long term. Think of those nasal sprays that reduce congestion. They absolutely do that, breathe that stuff in and it opens your airway real good, but at the same time it irritates those tissues so when the effect wears off, the airway becomes even more blocked than before because of the inflammation from the irritation. Alcohol does a similar thin…

I did not encountered such sprays. The ones I used worked and once they were not needed I stopped - typically in few days.

Re: Surprisingly little alcohol can affect heart rate variability

#88

Post by watwut »

aksss wrote: post #86
Mordisquitos wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure that there are many alternatives that would be healthier than alcohol for any given individual, be it exercise, social and economic stability, CBT, vacation, improved diet, better sleep, etc. However, in societies where alcohol consumption is an engrained feature of ordinary life and social interactions, is it even feasible to encourage every person to implement whichever of the myriad of alternatives would…

As an individual body, there is no benefit that alcohol provides your system that cannot be achieved through healthier means (that I'm aware of - tell me if I'm wrong). I'm not saying alcohol isn't effective, I'm saying that in all cases there are healthier ways (wiser ways) to achieve the positive effects. I'm not saying alcohol isn't efficient, I'm saying the work required to implement the healthier methods for the…

That is not standard we apply ... to pretty much anything else people consume. No single food or drink will make you live longer.

This is all just an attempt to create moral panic with pretension it is all concern about health. So people are free to point out that.

Re: Surprisingly little alcohol can affect heart rate variability

#89

Post by allturtles »

lm28469 wrote: post #51
nabla9 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The optimal level of alcohol intake for health and longevity is zero The whole "little alcohol can actually be healthy" meme is a good example of corporate sponsored research combined with publication bias. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publication_bias It went on 15-20 years before better and larger studies debunked it. Alcohol use and burden for 195 countries and territories, 1990–2016: a systematic analysis for…

> The whole "little alcohol can actually be healthy" meme is a good example of corporate sponsored research combined with publication bias. It also is what everyone drinking a few glasses of wine here and there want to hear

Isn't "The optimal level of alcohol intake for health and longevity is zero" exactly what abstainers want to hear?

I don't think we should rely on any group's anecdotal espousal of the health benefits of their choices.

Re: Surprisingly little alcohol can affect heart rate variability

#90

Post by serverholic »

nradov wrote: post #81
serverholic wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Randomized control trials are done all the time. They can and are done ethically. I don't know where you people are getting the idea that RCTs are unethical.

Proper large scale, long term RCTs have almost never been done in the human nutrition field. In order to really get the "controlled" part of an RCT the researchers have to confine people somewhere that all of their food and beverage intake can be accurately counted. Obviously this is very expensive and researchers can't ethically confine people in controlled environments for years. At most those studies have been don…

Where the did you get the idea that I'm suggesting we lock people away for years?

Yes of course it's expensive which is why I said we should have larger scale studies with more test subjects funded by the government.

Also, what does subject reported data have to do with RTCs? What are you even arguing about?

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