Apple sued for terminating account with $25k worth of apps and videos • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple sued for terminating account with $25k worth of apps and videos

#81

Post by hokuem » Sun, Apr 25, 2021, 2:04 PM UTC

Mindwipe wrote: post #51

bityard wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's what the court case is about. I would certainly _like_ for the result of the case to be either Apple (Amazon, et al) stops using the word "Buy" in their apps, or better yet but even more unlikely, for the companies to start providing media as DRM-free downloads. But like I said: the cynic in me says neither is going to happen.

There is zero chance of DRM free downloads. Literally zero.

You can buy movies on Vimeo 100% DRM free. It’s the only place I buy them.

Re: Apple sued for terminating account with $25k worth of apps and videos

#82

Post by nfriedly » Sun, Apr 25, 2021, 2:07 PM UTC

schrectacular wrote: post #64

l-lousy wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Change it to “rent” or give the option to download. You can’t have a contract where the terms change at any time for any reason (apples account termination policy)

Even employment contracts work this way in a lot of US states. "At Will" employees can be terminated instantly without notice.

Yeah, but employment termination only applies going forward. The employer can't retroactively take back all of your previous pay. Apple here is keeping his money and also keeping the things he purchased with it.

Re: Apple sued for terminating account with $25k worth of apps and videos

#83

Post by m-p-3 » Sun, Apr 25, 2021, 2:07 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #10

ryandrake wrote: post #7

Wow, $25K and he did not have download access to a single bit. That's insane! I hope this goes to trial and sets a precedent. The word "buy" is extremely misleading when it comes to cloud content. Never buy anything that the manufacturer is allowed to later repossess or deny your access to!

They should just force all these vendors to relabel those buttons to "Rent" or equivalent.

Then that's a positive change, and it will change the customers' perception when they "buy" something they don't own.

Re: Apple sued for terminating account with $25k worth of apps and videos

#84

Post by syshum » Sun, Apr 25, 2021, 2:10 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #76

syshum wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has has been perfectly legal for decades for a person to make backups of their physical media So this line of thought is completely incorrect, digital distribution did not invent the ability to have backups of media you purchased

That’s not in dispute. What I’m saying is for the most part these media wore out and often times people had to repurchase those media. I’ve known people who had to replace many of their CDs. They didn’t get to go to the store and “return the defective one” for a warranty replacement.

and I have known many people that lose digital data because they did not back it up, they had to then repurchase that content, including things like DRM free ebooks, or drm free media

This is not a valid line of objection, just because if someone destroyed their CD and did not have a backup would have to rebuy, same is true if someone did not backup their DRM free content.

This HAS NOTHING TO DO with the ability to backup, or the fact that physical media may degrade over time. That is a non sequitur and a red herring all in one

In reality this is not even about digital media copyright, but more about the rights of digital platforms to unperson you and seize your legally purchase products for any arbitrary reason (or in many cases no reason at all)

Re: Apple sued for terminating account with $25k worth of apps and videos

#85

Post by mguerville » Sun, Apr 25, 2021, 2:13 PM UTC

Vespasian wrote: post #60

cipher_system wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always assumed they would be available as long as Apple or iTunes doesn't go under. Guess i'm not a reasonable consumer but luckily I haven't spent much money on them.

Apple and friends will do their best to avoid a ruling and laws which could establish this interpretation because it would end their practice to terminate accounts with the reason "Computer says no". When contracting with consumers these companies should be forced to be liable and accountable for their algorithmic decisions and arbitrary policy enforcement. That wouldn't be unreasonable at all. "They clicked the acce…

Especially because every so often we as consumers get an email saying “we made some updates to the EULA / ToS, here’s the full 50 pages document without any markup as to what actually changed, you are now bound by these new terms that aren’t exactly the ones you initially agreed to”

Re: Apple sued for terminating account with $25k worth of apps and videos

#86

Post by wayneftw » Sun, Apr 25, 2021, 2:15 PM UTC

1cvmask wrote: post #55

Diggsey wrote: post #17

IMO it wouldn't matter if they'd used the word "Rent" or "Licence" instead: it would still be unreasonable. Account termination is entirely at Apple's discretion, meaning the term of your "rental" is not known when you actually pay for the content. For most people the term will be "forever", so that is the expectation. It's simple: if apple want to terminate your account, they need to refund you for any content you l…

Do we know why his account was terminated? I couldn’t find anything on that.

I only found this vague statement:

> Price says that Apple terminated his account when the company suspected him of breaching its terms and conditions, but due to the clause in question Apple did not have to confirm a breach occurred or give Price notice or explanation before shutting down his Apple ID. [0]

[0] https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/consumer-pro...

Re: Apple sued for terminating account with $25k worth of apps and videos

#87

Post by mc32 » Sun, Apr 25, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #84

mc32 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not in dispute. What I’m saying is for the most part these media wore out and often times people had to repurchase those media. I’ve known people who had to replace many of their CDs. They didn’t get to go to the store and “return the defective one” for a warranty replacement.

and I have known many people that lose digital data because they did not back it up, they had to then repurchase that content, including things like DRM free ebooks, or drm free media This is not a valid line of objection, just because if someone destroyed their CD and did not have a backup would have to rebuy, same is true if someone did not backup their DRM free content. This HAS NOTHING TO DO with the ability to b…

I agree with your point that Apple should not be able to yank/revoke access and treat your account differently than anyone else’s other than by court order. This is worrisome.

My initial question was tangential and more thinking out loud how they deal with lower sales velocities.

Re: Apple sued for terminating account with $25k worth of apps and videos

#88

Post by Applejinx » Sun, Apr 25, 2021, 2:24 PM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #14

realusername wrote: post #3

> Apple countered by arguing that “no reasonable consumer would believe” that content purchased through iTunes would be available on the platform indefinitely Remember this sentence to change your mind for the next time you see some movie to buy online.

I do not think consumers know this at all and very much do agree that what they buy will be available to them during their lifetime at least. When I told friends that this can (and does) happen to books on Kindle that they paid for, they were very surprised. I am a reasonable consumer but yes, of course I assume that if it does not say 'rent this movie or book for a day' but instead uses the word 'buy' (often next to…

If it was an object in your house, and they made it disappear and left you some money, that would be theft.

Thoughts?

I'm not convinced 'making digital goods disappear' is good. I know WHY it's done and totally understand the justification, but I continue to dislike and distrust the practice.

Should we normalize the idea that everything we own is fungible, at the discretion of a third party, for its exchange value? Under what conditions do they get to swap out our property for replacements or money?

Re: Apple sued for terminating account with $25k worth of apps and videos

#89

Post by RyanGoosling » Sun, Apr 25, 2021, 2:24 PM UTC

realusername wrote: post #3

> Apple countered by arguing that “no reasonable consumer would believe” that content purchased through iTunes would be available on the platform indefinitely Remember this sentence to change your mind for the next time you see some movie to buy online.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes

Re: Apple sued for terminating account with $25k worth of apps and videos

#90

Post by karlkloss » Sun, Apr 25, 2021, 2:26 PM UTC

I don't know whether Apple/Google/Facebook-Oculus/Microsoft/Sony, etc. already noticed (most likely not), but I already stopped buying anything from them, for exactly the reason that they might terminate my account without even telling me why, and without a possibility to object or even talk to a human being.

In an ideal world, everybody would do so, and the problem would go away very quickly.