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Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

nj.com

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Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#81

Post by Klinky »

monoideism wrote: post #75
Klinky wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a different belief, it was a flat out lie and spreading of misinformation, their own source doesn't even back them up. Stop pushing a narrative that misinformation should be "equally considered" or is "just another point of view".

This is where you and I disagree, and frankly why our country will continue to decline into more polarization and violence. I believe that you convince people that they're wrong by making a reasoned argument. You seem to believe that you convince people that they're wrong by shutting them up, and censoring them. And as a free human being, I'll push whichever POV I so choose.

If you make a statement and provide a source that contradicts your statement, yes, you should be questioned on why you even provided that source in the first place, and if you actually read/comprehended it. That isn't "shutting them up", they invalidated their own claims with their own source.

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#82

Post by cycomanic »

andrew_ wrote: post #76
Klinky wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a different belief, it was a flat out lie and spreading of misinformation, their own source doesn't even back them up. Stop pushing a narrative that misinformation should be "equally considered" or is "just another point of view".

"misinformation" is the rallying cry of those who wish to suppress speech, even if that speech is patently false. Enough with the Gestapo tactics. Instead, allow the incorrect statement to be contrasted with correct information.

I'm sure you you would agree that there are limits. Or what would you say if someone here started to create throwaway accounts spreading persinal lies about you?

Would you still argue that it's enough to just correct those lies? What about if the person isn't just a single person but a group.

Also, I hope you do realise the irony of arguing by calling someone's opinion gestapo tactics.

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#83

Post by commentingbadly »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #68
commentingbadly wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a disgusting and false comment https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/09/29/fac... - Rates of white-on-white and Black-on-Black homicide are similar, at around 80% and 90% - Rates of Black-on-white and white-on-Black homicide also within 8 points - Police kill Black people at disproportionate rates

I think the article uses an odd way to frame it. To me, a rate should be measured in "people per year" or "people per year normalized by population size". Meanwhile the article is using the word "rate" to refer to what is actually the ratio between two different rates. The FBI stats seem to back up the above commenter (however one would expect policing biases to be reflected in their statistics). If you compare a ran…

> The FBI stats

Is there a Goodwin's Law for citing FBI statistics yet?

> I'm not sure if the numbers would look different if you used the colloquial definition of 'white'

You say you're not sure, but you seem to be suggesting something. Care to say it out loud?

> If anything I think that's proof of of institutional racism's impact. I'm guessing the disparity is really just showing income inequality

But, you spent the whole post talking about race, but you really think it is income? I'm confused.

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#84

Post by stadium »

nerdponx wrote: post #32
elil17 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arresting at a hire rate means in comparison to the demographics of the city. In 2020, 50% of Newark residents were Black but 80% of arrests were of Black people. 80% of victims of police use of force were Black. A third of the city is white but only 4% of police use of force victims are white. [1] [1]: https://www.nj.com/opinion/2020/07/newark-must-do-more-to-st...

The problem with all this data is that it doesn't inform us of who is actually committing crimes . If we are overly fixated on racism by the police and confuse correlation with causation, we might entirely miss other structural/systemic factors that might be leading (or forcing) black people to criminal behavior more often than white people. I am aware of some research that tries to estimate propensity to actually co…

The police don't get to decide who committed a crime, the judicial system does.

Yours is the same argument that George Floyd deserved what he got because he was a criminal. Being arrested or frisked by police does not a criminal make. Conviction does.

It's a duck.

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#85

Post by WandOfALeftFoot »

oivey wrote: post #61
imagineerschool wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Confirmed, can't access it from Canada, but with a VPN to the US, it's available. Who makes these choices?

It’s similar to the BBC blocking non-UK streamers.

The BBC is not free though.

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#86

Post by commentingbadly »

lolinder wrote: post #66
commentingbadly wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a disgusting and false comment https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/09/29/fac... - Rates of white-on-white and Black-on-Black homicide are similar, at around 80% and 90% - Rates of Black-on-white and white-on-Black homicide also within 8 points - Police kill Black people at disproportionate rates

Those stats don't say what you think they say. Those show that white people are no more likely to kill black people than black people are to kill white people. They do not say that black people are no more likely to kill someone .

> They do not say that black people are no more likely to kill someone.

And you believe it is racial makeup that makes a person more likely to kill someone? I disagree and I think race has nothing to do with it

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#87

Post by tootie »

FeepingCreature wrote: post #27
tootie wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably not causation. Crime rates are up nationwide. NYC is seeing a spike too and we've got the most expensive police force in the world. More likely the pandemic is to blame.

Not happening in other countries though?

It has other countries that were always bad. Western europe and asia are fine as ever. And some do it with unarmed police. Which is why it seems overwhelmingly likely to be determined by social policy (ie healthcare and gun control) and not enforcement.

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#88

Post by bitexploder »

misiti3780 wrote: post #79
AtNightWeCode wrote: post #17

Good for Newark! But, from what I understand, they gave the cops better training and got better result. That is how education works.

Sam Harris has a new, very interesting podcast with Rener Gracie about police training and how inadequate it is across the entire United States. Officers in California get one - 4 hour course every two years to learn how to subdue criminals, and of the 4 hours, only one is actually spent training, the other three are instruction. Rener Gracie is obviously famous for Brazilian jiu-jitsu but he also trains police on ho…

My BJJ gym offers deep discount to police. This is a good thing. I’ve rolled with many police fresh to grappling and even with my limited skills they are very easy to subdue. No wonder they resort to weapons (lethal and less than lethal) so quickly. I have been training a few years now.

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#89

Post by wolverine876 »

helloworld11 wrote: post #26
elil17 wrote: post #13

I think this only addresses half of what's wrong with Newark PD. Newark still spends about a third of it's city budget on police, at the expense of essential services like infrastructure and education. Newark PD still arrests Black people at a much much higher rate than white people. The disparity of arrest rates is even greater when it comes to drug possession.

>Newark PD still arrests Black people at a much much higher rate than white people. And if it's the case that people in the city's black community are committing arrestable offenses (however stupid some definitions of what is an offense for which you can be arrested and charged with for are), then what should the department do? Not arrest people for doing things it's been ordered to arrest people for doing just becau…

> if

There is a lot of evidence, that is easy to find, that laws criminalize African-Americans (e.g., drugs abused by poor African-Americans are criminal and result in prison; those abused by wealthy white people are sicknesses and result in treatment); that police harass and are brutal toward them (e.g., driving while black, predictive policing, and all the well-documented brutality and racism), and that prosecutors and courts sentence them to disproportionately harsh sentences, including long probation and loss of voting rights, and the inability, with a conviction, to get employment.

In my city I've seen the police in action many 5 times. Twice, it involved clear abuse and harassment of peaceful African-Americans. It's just my anecdotal experience, but are the odds?

Your argument is decades-old at this point; we know so much more now. What do you think of all that's been learned in the meantime (and by learned, I mean learned by the wealthy white population - it was known by some for generations)? Are we going to just rehash decades of learning? Nobody is making the points you are arguing with.

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#90

Post by syops »

monoideism wrote: post #75
Klinky wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a different belief, it was a flat out lie and spreading of misinformation, their own source doesn't even back them up. Stop pushing a narrative that misinformation should be "equally considered" or is "just another point of view".

This is where you and I disagree, and frankly why our country will continue to decline into more polarization and violence. I believe that you convince people that they're wrong by making a reasoned argument. You seem to believe that you convince people that they're wrong by shutting them up, and censoring them. And as a free human being, I'll push whichever POV I so choose.

From my perspective the U.S. has steadily shifted to the right the past 40 years. I doubt that a person advocating Reagan’s policies would be supported by today’s Republican Party. We have entered into territory where the paradox of tolerance is very much a reality. Tolerance is no longer a good option when confronting disingenuous comments. There is a significant segment of the American public that simply can no longer be reasoned with. As an example people who believe that Michelle Obama is a man can not be reasoned with.
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