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On Being an Outsider

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Re: On Being an Outsider

#81

Post by atoav »

titzer wrote: post #74

I moved from the US to Germany and lived there for almost 7 years. Even as someone with German ancestry (from 5 generations ago), a German last name, and enough language skills to get by, you never really fit in. Germans are insular in a way that, I suppose, all people are, but a special kind of matter-of-fact curtness that is off-putting. Younger Germans are embarrassed by it and make a show of welcoming outsiders (…

As an Austrian living in Germany I actually manage to not have them notice that I am from a country who was their enemy for centuries. Of course if I were to speak with my Austrian dialect they would barely understand me, but I don't, so whenever I bring it up they are usually quite surprised.

It also depends on your social circles and where in Germany you are. If you are in Berlin or Hamburg being German won't matter too much. If you are in the suburbs of shouthern or eastern German cities, much more so. If you are in the creative world of Berlin you might get away without talking German at all.

Given it's comparedly small size Germany has a surprisingly diverse regional culture, which is why people who know the regions well usually lough at the idea of something that is "real German". Or as the Austrians say it: "What divides us from the Germans, is the common language" and I'd argue Bavarian and northern German culture is equally far apart.

Re: On Being an Outsider

#82

Post by periheli0n »

atoav wrote: post #81
titzer wrote: post #74

I moved from the US to Germany and lived there for almost 7 years. Even as someone with German ancestry (from 5 generations ago), a German last name, and enough language skills to get by, you never really fit in. Germans are insular in a way that, I suppose, all people are, but a special kind of matter-of-fact curtness that is off-putting. Younger Germans are embarrassed by it and make a show of welcoming outsiders (…

As an Austrian living in Germany I actually manage to not have them notice that I am from a country who was their enemy for centuries. Of course if I were to speak with my Austrian dialect they would barely understand me, but I don't, so whenever I bring it up they are usually quite surprised. It also depends on your social circles and where in Germany you are. If you are in Berlin or Hamburg being German won't matte…

Precisely! Also, most southern Germans will understand your Austrian tongue very well. Berlin is full of “immigrants” from southern Germany, but they will go great lengths to hide it, for fear of being made fun of. The moral barrier that keeps most Germans from making fun of immigrants from other countries is void if they detect a “funny” German accent.

Re: On Being an Outsider

#83

Post by DocTomoe »

titzer wrote: post #74

I moved from the US to Germany and lived there for almost 7 years. Even as someone with German ancestry (from 5 generations ago), a German last name, and enough language skills to get by, you never really fit in. Germans are insular in a way that, I suppose, all people are, but a special kind of matter-of-fact curtness that is off-putting. Younger Germans are embarrassed by it and make a show of welcoming outsiders (…

Especially with Germany, this also is a cultural phenomeon - even for Germans, it is surprisingly hard to get into a group you are not a member of (especially if you go into the less hip, super-urban areas of Berlin, Cologne, Hamburg or Munich). Getting into the pack is hard, but once you're in, you got friends for life.

I can only imagine how hard that is for a foreigner.

Re: On Being an Outsider

#84

Post by DocTomoe »

periheli0n wrote: post #82
atoav wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Austrian living in Germany I actually manage to not have them notice that I am from a country who was their enemy for centuries. Of course if I were to speak with my Austrian dialect they would barely understand me, but I don't, so whenever I bring it up they are usually quite surprised. It also depends on your social circles and where in Germany you are. If you are in Berlin or Hamburg being German won't matte…

Precisely! Also, most southern Germans will understand your Austrian tongue very well. Berlin is full of “immigrants” from southern Germany, but they will go great lengths to hide it, for fear of being made fun of. The moral barrier that keeps most Germans from making fun of immigrants from other countries is void if they detect a “funny” German accent.

Not only "fear of being made fun of", also "not becoming a target for terrorist acts". In some Berlin districts, having the "wrong" license plate is making it likely to get your car torched.

Re: On Being an Outsider

#85

Post by brnt »

titzer wrote: post #74

I moved from the US to Germany and lived there for almost 7 years. Even as someone with German ancestry (from 5 generations ago), a German last name, and enough language skills to get by, you never really fit in. Germans are insular in a way that, I suppose, all people are, but a special kind of matter-of-fact curtness that is off-putting. Younger Germans are embarrassed by it and make a show of welcoming outsiders (…

It's tempting to hold ones own N=1 for the generic case, but off course that can never be true.

I have found that variability within countries is higher than between (Western) countries. Which does not mean there are no mean differences, but with a limited sampling size you can get a very wrong impression.

Same reason you cannot possibly judge your own country BTW: you can't pass for an outsider, and you will have that almost innate shared set of references.

Re: On Being an Outsider

#86

Post by periheli0n »

DocTomoe wrote: post #84
periheli0n wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely! Also, most southern Germans will understand your Austrian tongue very well. Berlin is full of “immigrants” from southern Germany, but they will go great lengths to hide it, for fear of being made fun of. The moral barrier that keeps most Germans from making fun of immigrants from other countries is void if they detect a “funny” German accent.

Not only "fear of being made fun of", also "not becoming a target for terrorist acts". In some Berlin districts, having the "wrong" license plate is making it likely to get your car torched.

These are maybe five blocks in a distinct Kreuzberg neighbourhood which has gone from low rent to being among the most expensive parts of Berlin, within a decade. The inhabitants often have no choice but to move far away in Berlin, giving up their home. Many of them are very angry and have nothing to lose.

Re: On Being an Outsider

#87

Post by unishark »

devoutsalsa wrote: post #54
throway98752343 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP, but somewhat similar situation and conclusion. Racism is too strong a word, it's more like sticking out. Like if you're the only one in large group who has black hair, or doesn't have a beard, or is a childless adult, or is religious, the assumptions of the group will from time to time remind you (and perhaps others) that you're unusual. I believe those are what are called micro-aggressions, though there need…

I felt this way visiting Pakistan last year. I’m a 6’5”, 120kg white dude. People asked to take a photo with me up to 10 times per day. I’d never felt so exotic in my life.

I've been to Japan a few times and it is nothing like that. People are very rigidly polite in public. You may feel self-conscious because you stick out like a sore thumb, having to duck under lights and doorways and stuff, but people will eerily act like it's totally common to see that.

Re: On Being an Outsider

#88

Post by unishark »

type0 wrote: post #56
daenz wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm asking OP if they do because of this line: >being a white American, I came to grasps that I would always be a Gaijin,

I find that Americans give to much weight to the skin color, it has the historical reasons there but often can't be applied in the same way outside the US.

I think they meant white as in of European ancestry. It applies as making one obviously not of Japanese ancestry.

Re: On Being an Outsider

#90

Post by f6v »

wassenaar10 wrote: post #33
f6v wrote: post #19

I see people get integrated into society through children. You live in Berlin, you need to send your children to school, talk to the teachers, other parents. You drop your children off to the house parties, you talk about your profession in front of your child's class. German language becomes a clear necessity. People also say joining some club helps. I did kickboxing for year, there isn't much talking as it turns ou…

Is there no Russian/ex-USSR expat community where you live?

I was lucky to work with many Russians at my last company in Berlin. At its peak we had all-Russian team, that was hilarious, cracking jokes all day like you never left home. So I wasn’t seeking anyone. But I hear Berlin has a large community. I was also lucky to live one train station away from the largest Eastern European grocery shop. The things you find there turn ordinary shopping into an adventure.

It’s different for smaller cities, since most young immigrants congregate in IT hubs. And there’s a huge difference to, say, Chinese or Thai. The latter seem to value their community much more that Russians.

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