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Amazon’s ‘Lord of the Rings’ series will cost at least $465M for first season

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Re: Amazon’s ‘Lord of the Rings’ series will cost at least $465M for first season

#81

Post by [deleted] »

olivierestsage wrote: post #73
threatofrain wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure even the author is authoritative over their own work. Ray Bradbury once famously ditched a guest lecture because his audience disagreed on the framing of his book. JK Rowling is thought to go back and retrospectively reframe her book, a framing which she has trouble gathering consensus for despite being the author.

It's definitely an interesting question -- the "death of the author." Personally, as a reader, I draw the line at disagreeing with explicitly stated intentions of authors if I find those intentions are well-evidenced in their texts. In the case of LotR, I would be inclined to say that they are -- but an element of subjective judgment will always trouble these discussions.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon’s ‘Lord of the Rings’ series will cost at least $465M for first season

#82

Post by tzs »

adrianN wrote: post #4
amelius wrote: post #2

Curious if I'm the only one here who thinks that LotR is overrated. Let them spend the money on a better story.

Lord of the Rings is a brilliant story, but I'd strongly prefer new material over another adaption.

As others have already pointed out, the LotR universe is much bigger than the Peter Jackson adaptations covered, and this will be set in those other parts of that universe. So it should be fine on the new vs. rehash front.

But if any producers read HN and are looking for other well-developed fantasy or science fiction universes with plenty of existing written stories that could be turned into excellent TV series, miniseries, or movies, here are some that I'd definitely want to watch, and I don't think I'd be alone in this.

1. Fritz Leiber's "Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser" series [1].

2. Richard and Wendy Pini's "Elfquest" series [2].

3. Larry Niven's Known Space series [3].

4. Anne McCaffrey's Pern series [4].

As far as I know, no one has even ever started development on #1.

Warner Brothers announced they were going to do an "Elfquest" movie in 2008, but cancelled it because they thought it would compete with another fantasy movie they were doing, "The Hobbit".

One story from #3, "The Soft Weapon" got adapted to the Star Trek universe and became the episode "The Slaver Weapon" of the Star Trek animated series.

#4 almost got to the point of shooting a pilot for a TV series at Warner Broters. They had cast it and sets were being built. But WB requested so many changes in the final script that it was no longer really Pern (I've seen it described as a cross between Xena and Buffy). The showrunner, Ronald D. Moore [5], was a fan of the books and quit rather than going along with the changes, and the project died.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fafhrd_and_the_Gray_Mouser

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elfquest

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Known_Space

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonriders_of_Pern

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_D._Moore

Re: Amazon’s ‘Lord of the Rings’ series will cost at least $465M for first season

#83

Post by olivierestsage »

brundolf wrote: post #80
olivierestsage wrote: post #12

Although I suspect this will not be a popular comment, I hope the Amazon series will remain faithful to the Catholic/Christian sense that Tolkien deliberately infused into these novels. Peter Jackson did a notably good job with that, all things considered. To be clear, I don't think that you should have to be a Christian to like Lord of the Rings -- quite the contrary. But given the lack of compelling Christian art i…

Tolkien was famously against the idea of allegory in fiction (in stark contrast with his friend C.S. Lewis). All parts of an author's life are going to influence his creative works - that's just inevitable - so I'm sure you could find some things that might be traced back to his religion. But you could say the same thing about his experience fighting in WWI, for example. I highly doubt there were any intentional refe…

I wouldn't want to think of LotR as a "mere echo of his beliefs." However, when Tolkien criticized allegory, he wasn't criticizing the idea that a work could be infused with deliberate meaning; the key difference is that he felt it should be "infused" -- digested, not a solid block of meaning that pounds readers over the head.

Regarding his intentionality in putting that kind of meaning in, other comments in this thread quote him explicitly discussing this aspect.

Re: Amazon’s ‘Lord of the Rings’ series will cost at least $465M for first season

#84

Post by brundolf »

olivierestsage wrote: post #83
brundolf wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tolkien was famously against the idea of allegory in fiction (in stark contrast with his friend C.S. Lewis). All parts of an author's life are going to influence his creative works - that's just inevitable - so I'm sure you could find some things that might be traced back to his religion. But you could say the same thing about his experience fighting in WWI, for example. I highly doubt there were any intentional refe…

I wouldn't want to think of LotR as a "mere echo of his beliefs." However, when Tolkien criticized allegory, he wasn't criticizing the idea that a work could be infused with deliberate meaning; the key difference is that he felt it should be "infused" -- digested, not a solid block of meaning that pounds readers over the head. Regarding his intentionality in putting that kind of meaning in, other comments in this thr…

Sure, I just think it's overly narrow to call that meaning a "Catholic/Christian sense". When I left the church, in fact, The Lord of the Rings remained a source of great meaning for me specifically because it enshrined that meaning in a non-religious context. Obviously for Tolkien, personally, those themes would have been rooted in his religious life. But I think it's a strength, and not a weakness, that they can transcend it.

(Not that I expect Amazon to do a good job of preserving them either way, for the record :P)

Re: Amazon’s ‘Lord of the Rings’ series will cost at least $465M for first season

#85

Post by olivierestsage »

brundolf wrote: post #84
olivierestsage wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't want to think of LotR as a "mere echo of his beliefs." However, when Tolkien criticized allegory, he wasn't criticizing the idea that a work could be infused with deliberate meaning; the key difference is that he felt it should be "infused" -- digested, not a solid block of meaning that pounds readers over the head. Regarding his intentionality in putting that kind of meaning in, other comments in this thr…

Sure, I just think it's overly narrow to call that meaning a "Catholic/Christian sense". When I left the church, in fact, The Lord of the Rings remained a source of great meaning for me specifically because it enshrined that meaning in a non-religious context. Obviously for Tolkien, personally, those themes would have been rooted in his religious life. But I think it's a strength, and not a weakness, that they can tr…

Point taken, and in my original comment, I wasn't expressing the hope that hobbits would turn toward the camera and recite the Apostles' Creed or something. I was just hoping that the underlying spirit and values of Christian belief, which I believe suffuse the work, would not be contradicted or trampled on by the new treatment.

Re: Amazon’s ‘Lord of the Rings’ series will cost at least $465M for first season

#86

Post by staticman2 »

olivierestsage wrote: post #12

Although I suspect this will not be a popular comment, I hope the Amazon series will remain faithful to the Catholic/Christian sense that Tolkien deliberately infused into these novels. Peter Jackson did a notably good job with that, all things considered. To be clear, I don't think that you should have to be a Christian to like Lord of the Rings -- quite the contrary. But given the lack of compelling Christian art i…

There are religious themes in The Silmarilion but there are virtually none in Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit from what I recall.

Whatever Tolkien may have said privately- virtually every character comes across as not having a religion. None of them prey to God when in danger.

People are responding to the books Tolkien wrote, not what he said he wrote.

Re: Amazon’s ‘Lord of the Rings’ series will cost at least $465M for first season

#87

Post by cvhashim »

SilasX wrote: post #23
olivierestsage wrote: post #12

Although I suspect this will not be a popular comment, I hope the Amazon series will remain faithful to the Catholic/Christian sense that Tolkien deliberately infused into these novels. Peter Jackson did a notably good job with that, all things considered. To be clear, I don't think that you should have to be a Christian to like Lord of the Rings -- quite the contrary. But given the lack of compelling Christian art i…

Well, I have some bad news. It’s looking like they’re going to ape Game of Thrones, nudity and all. https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/lor...

Oof that’s sad. They should have kept it PG13. You don’t need nudity to tell a story. I’ll have to pass up on this series.

Re: Amazon’s ‘Lord of the Rings’ series will cost at least $465M for first season

#88

Post by olivierestsage »

staticman2 wrote: post #86
olivierestsage wrote: post #12

Although I suspect this will not be a popular comment, I hope the Amazon series will remain faithful to the Catholic/Christian sense that Tolkien deliberately infused into these novels. Peter Jackson did a notably good job with that, all things considered. To be clear, I don't think that you should have to be a Christian to like Lord of the Rings -- quite the contrary. But given the lack of compelling Christian art i…

There are religious themes in The Silmarilion but there are virtually none in Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit from what I recall. Whatever Tolkien may have said privately- virtually every character comes across as not having a religion. None of them prey to God when in danger. People are responding to the books Tolkien wrote, not what he said he wrote.

I hope you won't mind my responding in detail with what I think about this; I am passionate about this topic.

Tolkien deliberately removed references to prayer and religion in his fantasy world to avoid two potential traps: by showing a fictional religion, he would risk contradicting his faith; by explicitly loading scenes of Christian prayer into his fantasy, he would undermine the quality of the fiction with "allegory," thus undermining his own message by making it unpalatable to audiences.

What I am referring to when I talk about the spirit of Christianity that infuses LotR is not any explicitly allegorical meaning, but -- following Tolkien's own quotes to this effect -- different pieces that are left here and there in the text.

For example, for Christian readers of Tolkien, different aspects of Christ are typically understood to be found spread across the figures of Frodo, Gandalf, and Aragorn. Other Christian elements in the text include Gandalf's advice to Frodo to spare Gollum, and the fact that his mercy is ultimately what saves the quest; Gandalf's return from the dead, reborn and cloaked in the kingly majesty of white; the lore of Sauron as a fallen elf, tying him to the devil, who is also referred to as "the enemy" in Christianity; the way the ring gives earthly power but drains the soul, whereas sacrifice and hardship seem hopeless at the time, but have true power in the end, etc.

If you want a pretty good idea of a believer's perspective on this, there's a fairly good article by Ignatius Insight [1], but I don't know how persuasive it will be to someone who rejects the underlying premises.

[1] http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/pkreeft_christlo...

Re: Amazon’s ‘Lord of the Rings’ series will cost at least $465M for first season

#89

Post by dragonwriter »

brundolf wrote: post #84
olivierestsage wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't want to think of LotR as a "mere echo of his beliefs." However, when Tolkien criticized allegory, he wasn't criticizing the idea that a work could be infused with deliberate meaning; the key difference is that he felt it should be "infused" -- digested, not a solid block of meaning that pounds readers over the head. Regarding his intentionality in putting that kind of meaning in, other comments in this thr…

Sure, I just think it's overly narrow to call that meaning a "Catholic/Christian sense". When I left the church, in fact, The Lord of the Rings remained a source of great meaning for me specifically because it enshrined that meaning in a non-religious context. Obviously for Tolkien, personally, those themes would have been rooted in his religious life. But I think it's a strength, and not a weakness, that they can tr…

> Sure, I just think it's overly narrow to call that meaning a "Catholic/Christian sense".

Tolkien did; I think it is an error to ignore the fact that it very much is.

> When I left the church, in fact, The Lord of the Rings remained a source of great meaning for me specifically because it enshrined that meaning in a non-religious context.

That it is accessible to people outside of the inspiring religious framework, and has specific features which encourage that is also important to note, but doesn't in any way negate the specific religious grounding.

Re: Amazon’s ‘Lord of the Rings’ series will cost at least $465M for first season

#90

Post by dragonwriter »

staticman2 wrote: post #86
olivierestsage wrote: post #12

Although I suspect this will not be a popular comment, I hope the Amazon series will remain faithful to the Catholic/Christian sense that Tolkien deliberately infused into these novels. Peter Jackson did a notably good job with that, all things considered. To be clear, I don't think that you should have to be a Christian to like Lord of the Rings -- quite the contrary. But given the lack of compelling Christian art i…

There are religious themes in The Silmarilion but there are virtually none in Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit from what I recall. Whatever Tolkien may have said privately- virtually every character comes across as not having a religion. None of them prey to God when in danger. People are responding to the books Tolkien wrote, not what he said he wrote.

> None of them pr[a]y to God when in danger.

The entire story of LotR is of people either obeying or defying a divine command, delivered through an angel, to sacrifice apparent immediate self interest to defeat a fallen angel and his followers.

Plenty of stories in the Bible don’t deal so much with ritual religious observance by the characters was with following (or not) moral rules and/or response to divine emissaries (there are stories where religious observance in the more quotidien ritual sense is center-stage, but also plenty where it is entirely, or almost entirely, off-stage.)

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