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Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, says it got her fired

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Re: Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, says it got her fired

#81

Post by nmeofthestate »

jsty wrote: post #61
yladiz wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone not from the UK: What is zero rights employment, and how is it different than before?

It's not a special employment status. As a contractor in the UK you have fewer rights (pensions, notice periods, unfair dismissal, etc.) than an employee, but used to have not-inconsiderable tax benefits to trade off against this. Thanks to HMRC reforms known as IR35, a lot of contractors are now considered akin to "disguised employees" and taxed as such - thus being taxed like an employee without the requisite legal…

Contractors have a tendency to frame the gradual clamping down on their lucrative tax loopholes in hyperbolic self-pitying ways like this. Pretty savvy I guess.

Re: Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, says it got her fired

#82

Post by unilynx »

michaelcampbell wrote: post #75
that_guy_iain wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the employement practices in NA would be illegal in the EU. It seems really bad over there.

"most", really?

Sick leave, health care, at will employment and paid time off seem to be massively different, so I think ‘most’ may be justified.

If we only talk about device usage I can imagine objecting about the word ‘most’

Re: Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, says it got her fired

#83

Post by dalbasal »

apples_oranges wrote: post #4

We need to stop building a world without trust. Always checking, ensuring, surveilling (,mining on a blockchain), this is anti-human and will only lead to unhappiness, burnout, depression. It's no way to live unless we want to be like the Borg eventually.

One of the most important philosophers of enlightenment/industrial era was Jeremy Bentham... of utilitarian fame.

He designed a building called a Panopticon, a design for a factory that allows many workers to be monitored closely by managers. He also thought it would make a good design for prisons, another interest areas. A lot of modern prisons resemble/derive from the Panopticon.

We need to remember that not everything is a new problem. Digitisation creates new privacy avenues which can be violate or defend. The bigger picture often stays the same. Solving problems by exercising more rigorous control over workers... in ways they don't like.

I think many HN-ers have a certain class blindness about these issues. A lot of jobs require urine tests, monitor employee's screens, motivate using cctv, etc. Some jobs actually require this. Often though, it's just a class thing. Urine tests for CS agents and warehouse workers. None for programmers.

Re: Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, says it got her fired

#84

Post by [deleted] »

paxys wrote: post #67

When I started my last job (decently large corp) there was a long onboarding session for mobile device setup. Email, Skype, a dozen other internal apps, 2FA authenticator, SSO, device profiles, remote locking/erase, certificates — the whole deal. There was even some weird internal app store. I asked them where I could get my company phone to set up all this, and they replied no, you just use your personal phone. I ha…

[deleted]

Re: Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, says it got her fired

#85

Post by ArkanExplorer »

loloquwowndueo wrote: post #56
ArkanExplorer wrote: post #48

Is there any scientific evidence that this kind of excessive cleaning had any impact on COVID? What was the cost-benefit-analysis, how many years of life were saved per $, and how does that compare to other health interventions? If we just banned junk food at these schools, but let COVID run rampant (the number of children and teenagers dead from COVID is essentially statistical noise), would we have improved health…

Way to deflect the actual issue. The things you mention can be solved by actual supervision (you know, a supervisor doing their job) and old-fashioned time clock. The issue here is expecting the employee to install a spying app on their personal phone. If it’s that important, they should give the employee a work phone with the app.

Its not economically realistic to expect physical supervision, when this kind of cleaning work is typically fully distributed across multiple sites.

As part of the contract a worker would probably drive to a school at 5pm, clean it for a few hours, drive home.

Some workers probably realised that there was no one actually validating their work, and didn't show up or only 'worked' for a short period of time.

Its unreasonable to provide a work phone which then comes with a lot of corporate overhead and device management, for something which is probably just a temporary contract.

It seems completely reasonable to agree to location tracking as part of these jobs, since it makes the management and supervision process more efficient. Workers can buy cheap Android phones and run them on WiFi if they wish to separate their work device from their personal device.

Re: Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, says it got her fired

#86

Post by maccard »

izacus wrote: post #76
paxys wrote: post #67

When I started my last job (decently large corp) there was a long onboarding session for mobile device setup. Email, Skype, a dozen other internal apps, 2FA authenticator, SSO, device profiles, remote locking/erase, certificates — the whole deal. There was even some weird internal app store. I asked them where I could get my company phone to set up all this, and they replied no, you just use your personal phone. I ha…

This is where Android massively outclasses iOS: it separates all company data in an isolated profile, has a separate location switch for work apps, has a separate notification switch for work apps and doesn't allow access to your private data. You can easily disable the whole setup yourself (and company doesn't control it) which easily makes notifications go away whenever.

Assuming your workplace provides support for it. If they don't, you're SOL.

Re: Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, says it got her fired

#87

Post by varispeed »

feurio wrote: post #71
varispeed wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in the UK government introduced zero rights employment just few days ago and that would be totally legal here.

> Here in the UK government introduced zero rights employment just few days ago and that would be totally legal here. I am resolutely not a fan of our current UK government and they will certainly work to weaken worker's rights, but (absent of any corroberating references) this is just BS.

It's not BS. It is packaged as changes to IR35 and sold as "making sure that workers who work as employees pay the same tax as employees." More info: https://norightsemployee.uk/faq

Some MPs woke up quite too late: https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252499096/Loan-Charge-Gr...

The articles refer to those workers as contractors and mainly focus on IT market, but these rules can be applied to any workers.

Re: Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, says it got her fired

#88

Post by varispeed »

jsty wrote: post #61
yladiz wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone not from the UK: What is zero rights employment, and how is it different than before?

It's not a special employment status. As a contractor in the UK you have fewer rights (pensions, notice periods, unfair dismissal, etc.) than an employee, but used to have not-inconsiderable tax benefits to trade off against this. Thanks to HMRC reforms known as IR35, a lot of contractors are now considered akin to "disguised employees" and taxed as such - thus being taxed like an employee without the requisite legal…

There is a subtle change however that makes huge difference. Companies now can make anyone a contractor (deemed employee) as now the company decides about status and essentially create a workforce without any worker's rights. The "not-inconsiderable" tax benefits ended around 2017.

Re: Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, says it got her fired

#89

Post by novaRom »

taotau wrote: post #10

Im not qualified to comment on the sociopolitical implications of this. I would prefer if things had not got to this stage but I understand the good and bad uses of such information. My personal solution is to obfuscate my online data. I have many disparate identities online which I think makes it a bit harder to be targeted directly. I know that a concerted attack could easily tie my data together but I think I am n…

Even with multiple identities your device/browser fingerprints are unique. This data is probably regularly shared between large online players. They certainly know your real identity and that you try to obfuscate your online data.

Re: Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, says it got her fired

#90

Post by varispeed »

9point6 wrote: post #53
varispeed wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in the UK government introduced zero rights employment just few days ago and that would be totally legal here.

Oh wow, this has slipped me by entirely, have you got an article about it that I can read?

This website has a good summary https://norightsemployee.uk/faq

There is not much information about it, because that gone through as a change to IR35, so people slept on it, but in reality companies can only hire on "in-scope IR35" contract and bypass employment law altogether.

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