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For 2M years, humans ate meat and little else: study

timesofisrael.com

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Re: For 2M years, humans ate meat and little else: study

#81

Post by pacomerh »

JPKab wrote: post #19

My father had a mid-life crisis in the mid 90's, and went from being an avid hunter and fisherman to being a hardcore animal rights vegan. (It was all precipitated by him meeting and dating a woman who worked at PETA) He was about 45 at the time. Within 2 years, his health had markedly declined. There are healthy vegan diets, but his was an unhealthy vegan diet. Despite no history of heart attacks on either his mothe…

> My experience dealing with militant vegans is that there is no amount or type of evidence that would convince them that a diet that includes ANY amount of animal products is healthy.

You're missing the point here. They're not looking for reasons to think meat is healthy. You're vegan because you're against animal cruelty and harm that is done in the process to animals and our planet.

The diet aspect of it, yeah you can have bad habits in any diet, your health can decline just eating bad period. There are countless of cases of people's health decline that are not news anymore because it's very common. Hearth disease because of bad cholesterol?, well yeah it's not news we've been seeing that for ages so no gossip there. But what about a vegan person that died. Let's jump into conclusions and use this a reason to keep eating the things we like, because god forbid they take away our pleasures no matter who we hurt. This applies to both perspectives.

Re: For 2M years, humans ate meat and little else: study

#82

Post by enriquto »

JPKab wrote: post #19

My father had a mid-life crisis in the mid 90's, and went from being an avid hunter and fisherman to being a hardcore animal rights vegan. (It was all precipitated by him meeting and dating a woman who worked at PETA) He was about 45 at the time. Within 2 years, his health had markedly declined. There are healthy vegan diets, but his was an unhealthy vegan diet. Despite no history of heart attacks on either his mothe…

> My experience dealing with militant vegans is that there is no amount or type of evidence that would convince them that a diet that includes ANY amount of animal products is healthy. It's a religion to them, and that's that.

This does not correspond at all with my experience. I know many "militant" vegans, but none of them says that a vegan diet is healthier in itself. They simply don't want to kill animals. Even the most militant of the bunch has this clear. I was explaining to him that my kids enjoy vegan dishes, and he warned me against the dangers of a solely plant-based diet for children. Apparently they'd need some dietary supplements for a correct growth (I didn't really care, because my kids eat a lot of meat and fish, just not every day).

Re: For 2M years, humans ate meat and little else: study

#83

Post by imagine99 »

PurpleFoxy wrote: post #58
imagine99 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It‘s about cruelty towards animals and about sustainability. I think that should play absolutely no role in determining whether or not eating meat is better for you than a plant-based diet. It either is or isn't but animal cruelty and sustainability has nothing to do with that. IF we determine that more meat is better, we can totally focus and increase our efforts towards growing sustainable meat. This can be from…

How is it not reasonable to give up some things for the environment? Your health isn’t going to be doing so well if you don’t have a livable environment

Can I encourage you to think this through to the end because I see this argument so often. Never in human history has self-imposed restraint with regard to scientific exploration, possibilities and development given us any real advantage. The loser will be the one who practices that restraint of scientific exploration (not develop nuclear power, not go to space, not develop certain vaccines from stem cells). He will die out. The winner will be the one who ignores it, kills the other with atom bombs, has nuclear power, vaccines, super-soldiers and space habitats. And if the winner then comes to the conclusion that he might dedicate some of his energy and over-engineered super-brains to saving Earth and the environment, again, he will have a much bigger chance of success at this, too. You may well find this reprehensible but it is certainly axiomatic for humanity as a whole.

As a whole, people will never accept something in the long-term that requires measurable and hard sacrifices from them. For a current example just look at how hard it is to convince people to stay in lockdown (and those benefits are arguably much more obvious and immediate than "effects on the environment").

The answer to your second statement is more obvious still: If my health (and brain capacity, for arguments sake) is increased, I will have the ability to solve the other problems in the way that we humans traditionally solve problems outside of dogmatic and religious spaces: By scientific advancement.

Why should potentially limit my brain capacity and health to have a shorter lifespan in a potentially slightly more liveable environment? That makes no sense, sorry. Only if we all (including scientists, investors and innovators) live longer and healthier lives, then there will be both incentive and opportunity to solve problems of the environment in a way that does not require personal sacrifice (think carbon capture, lab-grown meat, becoming an interplanetary species and growing meat on asteroids if you want to take it that far) ;-)

Re: For 2M years, humans ate meat and little else: study

#84

Post by hollerith »

mkoubaa wrote: post #50
nish1500 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stone age humans are hardly the standard we should be aspiring for. The biggest two arguments for veganism are: 1. The horrific practises of the animal agriculture industry, which looks nothing like a chiseled hunter holding a bow 2. The devastating impact of the above on the environment Cavemen had neither of these issues.

While true, there are a lot of invasive (read: habitat destroying) animal species in North America (for example) and we got rid of most of the wolves, so hunting wild game should be a viable alternative to veganism for exactly those reasons.

The fraction of the US population that can be fed by hunting is very small, though. There just arent that many wild animals.

Re: For 2M years, humans ate meat and little else: study

#85

Post by uoaei »

forgetfulness wrote: post #70
uoaei wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is. I have literally never heard this argument from any vegetarians or vegans.

I think it was an old hippie thing, arguments from being closer to nature (rather than merely less harmful) were powerful back then. Today? The comparisons between wild and domestic crops are broadly circulated in the press and memes, premium mock meats are pushed by companies purporting to be high tech operations, there's no way you'd be spearing wild tofu swimming up the river because it doesn't exist.

Haven't seen any of that either. Not saying no one says that but I have trouble believing that it is a persistent enough meme to be attributed so broadly to any social movements.

Re: For 2M years, humans ate meat and little else: study

#86

Post by pacomerh »

raffraffraff wrote: post #76
JPKab wrote: post #19

My father had a mid-life crisis in the mid 90's, and went from being an avid hunter and fisherman to being a hardcore animal rights vegan. (It was all precipitated by him meeting and dating a woman who worked at PETA) He was about 45 at the time. Within 2 years, his health had markedly declined. There are healthy vegan diets, but his was an unhealthy vegan diet. Despite no history of heart attacks on either his mothe…

I've been vegetarian for 25 years. I'm male, 45 years old, my resting heart rate is around 50, and I can run 10km in under 50 minutes (and I do this about 3 times per week). Scroll back 5 years. My wife and I decided to become vegan (for various reasons - carbon footprint, animal welfare, all that jazz). Having been healthy vegetarians for about 20 years, it should have been easy, but regardless, we were meticulous.…

This hasn't been my experience being vegan. I actually feel great, vitality and everything. My whole family is and they're also fine like everyone else. We just make sure we eat good balanced meals.

Re: For 2M years, humans ate meat and little else: study

#87

Post by twobitshifter »

VoodooJuJu wrote: post #64
twobitshifter wrote: post #31

The actual paper was posted yesterday but got flagged. I don’t dispute any of the evidence but I do have 2 points to raise. 1. 95,000 years is plenty of time for adaptations in diet. The development of adult lactase for processing dairy was famously quick. The human diet is today well adapted to other foods without causing severe reactions. 2. The researchers note that our ancestors were primed to store fat for perio…

>95,000 years is plenty of time for adaptations in diet Is it? Is it enough for all kinds of dietary adaptations? If me and my progeny eat grass for 95,000 years, will we adapt to be able to digest it? On lactose: many of us carry the mutation that helps us digest lactose into adulthood (without any seeming issues). But does that make it ideal to consume? Is consumption of lactose into adulthood causing any issues th…

Yes if you eat grass and somehow survive to procreate you will have adapted to be able to digest it and sustain your species. Of course if you lack the genes you’ll die off and if the whole species lacks any genes and all that’s left to eat is grass, we all die. I believe from studying skeletons we know that agriculture first led to a decline in physical fitness and overall health - evidence that we weren’t well adapted at that time.

Re: For 2M years, humans ate meat and little else: study

#88

Post by mkoubaa »

hollerith wrote: post #84
mkoubaa wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While true, there are a lot of invasive (read: habitat destroying) animal species in North America (for example) and we got rid of most of the wolves, so hunting wild game should be a viable alternative to veganism for exactly those reasons.

The fraction of the US population that can be fed by hunting is very small, though. There just arent that many wild animals.

I don't dispute this, but until its saturated it has to be counted as an alternative.

Re: For 2M years, humans ate meat and little else: study

#89

Post by 0-_-0 »

enriquto wrote: post #82
JPKab wrote: post #19

My father had a mid-life crisis in the mid 90's, and went from being an avid hunter and fisherman to being a hardcore animal rights vegan. (It was all precipitated by him meeting and dating a woman who worked at PETA) He was about 45 at the time. Within 2 years, his health had markedly declined. There are healthy vegan diets, but his was an unhealthy vegan diet. Despite no history of heart attacks on either his mothe…

> My experience dealing with militant vegans is that there is no amount or type of evidence that would convince them that a diet that includes ANY amount of animal products is healthy. It's a religion to them, and that's that. This does not correspond at all with my experience. I know many "militant" vegans, but none of them says that a vegan diet is healthier in itself. They simply don't want to kill animals. Even t…

I only know 2 vegans, and they are vegan for solely health reasons (AFAIK)

Re: For 2M years, humans ate meat and little else: study

#90

Post by Daho0n »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #77
albertgoeswoof wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vegans don’t eat animal produce- including cow’s milk. Why would you expect a vegan to eat milk chocolate?

There are every kind of vegan. No broad generalities cover everybody. That's how.

There are vegans and then there are non-vegans. Being a vegan and eating something non-vegan make you a non-vegan. Cows milk is not vegan.
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