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Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

reuters.com

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Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#81

Post by justapassenger »

drcode wrote: post #18
giantandroids wrote: post #8

You do have to wonder if some of this is politically driven. Germany are losing hundreds of life's a day, while in the meantime the UK has administrated 23 million doses (not sure the ratio of those that were AstraZeneca) and not recorded a single fatality or adverse reaction and are seeing infection rates / deaths drop. I can understand caution under normal circumstances, but nothing is normal right now.

A problem with bureaucracies is that they often care deeply if people die from an action they are responsible for, but are fine if there are massive deaths due to inaction.

Because you can very easily destroy public trust medicines if you approve something unsafe, even if in grand scheme of things, it was better for humans. Just look at antivaccination movement, and imagine how many more people would be there if their claims were actually supported by data.

Humans aren’t rational.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#82

Post by mns »

hef19898 wrote: post #58
mns wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone would say this about COVID, they would be downvoted into oblivion for spreading unfounded conspiracy theories. It's already 6 countries in the EU that reported issues until now.

Yeah, and I rightly so if you ask me. AZ seems so to get all the heat in the press. I really wonder why, but as soon as you start looking at the numbers, there never seems to be something to it. First it was efficiany with elderly in the study, were the numbers were totally misunderstood. Then it was overall effectiveness, then prevention of severe cases. The list goes on. In the meanwhile, the press is reporting eve…

So we've been in a 5 month lockdown already in Germany, all of it to stop the spread of the virus with huge costs to the country, and now the comment that I replied to is saying that "I think this is part of political cover for the failing". Meaning that Germany and the EU, which have been doing everything that they can to stop this, are now somehow involved in a political cover to get some sort of revenge on the UK/AstraZeneca at the cost of the people that would be affected by COVID?

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#83

Post by patrickmcnamara »

jonplackett wrote: post #5

Maybe AZ should have charged €3 per shot instead of €2 and spent the extra € on a PR agency. They just seem to be constantly taking a hammering in the press, unfairly I’d say.

Not that unfairly. They keep reducing vaccine deliveries on short notice in the EU and have been opaque in general. I think they have delivered about 10% of what they agreed to for Q1.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#84

Post by maxerickson »

5cents wrote: post #62
maxerickson wrote: post #10

It seems the rate of these conditions isn't any different for the vaccinated than for the population (last bit of the article makes this point). What's the thought process here?

The rates at population levels are not enough. These are rare cases and, at least partially, in groups of people who shouldn't get that ill and suddenly die

Last week, Lothar Wieler, head of Germany’s Robert Koch Institute for Infectious Diseases, said there was no evidence that patients who received the vaccine were more likely than patients of a similar age group to suffer blood conditions.

Is that guy wrong or basing the statement on outdated information?

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#85

Post by subltemelt »

drcode wrote: post #18
giantandroids wrote: post #8

You do have to wonder if some of this is politically driven. Germany are losing hundreds of life's a day, while in the meantime the UK has administrated 23 million doses (not sure the ratio of those that were AstraZeneca) and not recorded a single fatality or adverse reaction and are seeing infection rates / deaths drop. I can understand caution under normal circumstances, but nothing is normal right now.

A problem with bureaucracies is that they often care deeply if people die from an action they are responsible for, but are fine if there are massive deaths due to inaction.

It's interesting because I feel the opposite as an acute care doctor in the US. If I give a medication, or get a scan, or whatever, and the patient has an adverse reaction, it's the medication/scan's fault. If I don't give the medication, don't get the scan, and something bad happens, it's my fault. At least that's how people see it for now. Leads to a lot of over-treatment and extra unnecessary testing in my opinion, especially around COVID (for example, I frequently see high-dose dexamethasone given for longer than 10 days or given to normoxic patients, despite the recommendation being for 6 mg daily for 10 days, and only for patients requiring oxygen).

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#86

Post by mrtksn »

drcode wrote: post #18
giantandroids wrote: post #8

You do have to wonder if some of this is politically driven. Germany are losing hundreds of life's a day, while in the meantime the UK has administrated 23 million doses (not sure the ratio of those that were AstraZeneca) and not recorded a single fatality or adverse reaction and are seeing infection rates / deaths drop. I can understand caution under normal circumstances, but nothing is normal right now.

A problem with bureaucracies is that they often care deeply if people die from an action they are responsible for, but are fine if there are massive deaths due to inaction.

Almost as if people are doing their jobs then?

I don’t think that beurocrats are supposed to be leaders. The elected officials should be pushing for the change, not the people who run the operations.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#87

Post by Nursie »

yokaze wrote: post #71
Nursie wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure at this point. When it was one suspicious death, countries suspending the vaccine definitely seemed like an overreaction, and unfortunately this particular vaccine has been something of a political football and subject of a lot of noise. But as more blood-clot deaths emerge... you gotta think caution is wise. OTOH yes, we in the UK have administered a lot of this stuff, and you'd think someone would have…

> But as more blood-clot deaths emerge... you gotta think caution is wise. I would challenge the term "caution", as it implies giving the vaccine is more risky than not. > Difficult to call, but I hope it's all being investigated thoroughly I agree there. But rather not for medical reasons.

> I would challenge the term "caution", as it implies giving the vaccine is more risky than not.

I suppose it depends on the alternative - if it's "not having the vaccine" clearly that's worse. If it's "controlling the death rate by prolonging lockdowns" then that's clearly not desirable either, but not quite as bad.

If it's just "give a different vaccine", then that would be no problem. Of course then there are the supply issues it's unlikely that simple.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#88

Post by andybak »

bananaowl wrote: post #64
giantandroids wrote: post #8

You do have to wonder if some of this is politically driven. Germany are losing hundreds of life's a day, while in the meantime the UK has administrated 23 million doses (not sure the ratio of those that were AstraZeneca) and not recorded a single fatality or adverse reaction and are seeing infection rates / deaths drop. I can understand caution under normal circumstances, but nothing is normal right now.

According to these reports hosted on gov.uk there are reports of fatalities and reactions. Pfizer: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... AstraZeneca: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... Disclaimer from UK.gov: Part of our monitoring role includes reviewing reports of suspected side effects. Any member of the public or health professional can submit suspected side…

1 fatal case of Immune thrombocytopenia for AstraZeneca 1 of Thrombocytopenia for Pfizer

Slightly different reporting periods but I'm pretty happy with the odds and I'd take either if offered.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#89

Post by fab1an »

johnnycerberus wrote: post #29

Judging by what the German press is writing nowadays about their politicans, especially the populists (and the unionists also) that are increasingly frustrated on the incapability of Germany (and the EU altogether) to handle the COVID situation and deliver a homemade vaccine, without the help of the USA and UK, it doesn't surprise me. It could be politically.

Germany has a "homemade" vaccine (BioNTech), in fact it was the first reliable vaccine on the market, and pioneering an entirely new medical paradigm at it, but the EC botched the process of acquiring it.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#90

Post by isolli »

fasteddie31003 wrote: post #9

The pandemic has made me believe we need to be greater consiquentalists in our polices. It's pretty obvious that on the whole the AstraZeneca vax will save more people than are killed from the side effects. We don't not live in a 0 risk existence.

Agreed, and the same argument can be applied _against_ lockdowns (meaning measures such as mandatory stay-at-home orders that go beyond usual NPIs). I think it is slowly emerging that hard lockdowns have done more harm than good. There is no zero risk in life.
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