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There Should Be No Computer Art (1971) [pdf]

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Re: There Should Be No Computer Art (1971) [pdf]

#81
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professional art is whatever you can sell as such. What i find boring with western art is that it is completely dependent on the critic and the discourse statement, in text, that must accompany any "serious" work of art. Zen and objects created under that philosophy makes no distinction between "high" and "low" art. There are multiple other approaches outside of the western paradigm. The writer of the article is sell…

>The writer of the article is selling a monetary-driven agenda Did we read entirely different articles? The one posted above is very much a creed against money-driven fads among artists.

The writer is writing on "what is art", while being a gallery represented professional artist (i.e. sold his art in the system) and a paid professor(again, professional system player).

It's brand awareness building, also known as self-promotion. "See, I'm in the racquet, but I'm not like the others!" He went on to publish a book on the subject, 3 years later. [ source : gallery statement, wikipedia ]

He is pushing art as politics and himself as the arbiter, all while preaching in the royal "We". Like I wrote, how tedious.

Re: There Should Be No Computer Art (1971) [pdf]

#82
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My working definition of "art": that which is created for the sufficient purpose of being perceived. This definition does not require the audience be not the artist. If one creates an instance for the sole purpose of being perceived by one's self alone, that is still art.

My thought process here was that that is not a useful definition, because all the extra stuff this definition lets in, is not stuff people would usually agree to call “art” / understand your meaning if you referred to it as “art.” Let me try my analogy again: if you’re the last human alive, and you invent a bunch of words used for thinking to yourself, are those a “language”? Or are they merely a verbal shorthand or…

As counter-argument, I reference the Voynich Manuscript: clearly a language is used to share thoughts, even though only the author (presumably) understood it.

I come to this definition of "art" precisely because so much of what is deemed "art" today "is not stuff people would usually agree to call 'art'", such as the "artist" shuffling around a pile of salt whilst on his knees for hours each day. Current art has done a great deal to eviscerate any sense of meaning (despite the pages of explanation accompanying every piece thereof), leaving me with my working definition: that which is made for the sufficient purpose of being perceived. I don't like the definition, being devoid of any aspect regarding improving the human condition, but that's what I'm left with.

Re: There Should Be No Computer Art (1971) [pdf]

#83
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My thought process here was that that is not a useful definition, because all the extra stuff this definition lets in, is not stuff people would usually agree to call “art” / understand your meaning if you referred to it as “art.” Let me try my analogy again: if you’re the last human alive, and you invent a bunch of words used for thinking to yourself, are those a “language”? Or are they merely a verbal shorthand or…

As counter-argument, I reference the Voynich Manuscript: clearly a language is used to share thoughts, even though only the author (presumably) understood it. I come to this definition of "art" precisely because so much of what is deemed "art" today "is not stuff people would usually agree to call 'art'", such as the "artist" shuffling around a pile of salt whilst on his knees for hours each day. Current art has done…

> The Voynich Manuscript: clearly a language used to share thoughts, even though only the author (presumably) understood it.

The Voynich Manuscript has been referred to as a "personal shorthand" rather than a "language" quite often. "Language" is a specific term, and "being used to exchange ideas between people" seems to be part of the definition as people care to use it.

We do call large systems of grammar+vocabulary invented by one person "con-langs", which suggests they are "languages" — but we only call them that when those languages have usage guides published, such that other people could theoretically attempt to speak them. Before that happens, we don't really have a term for them. They're private thoughts in the creator's head. Do you need a term for that?

(What do you call hypothetical semantics underlying the random runic scripts used to decorate buildings in sci-fi movies, that only the authors know the meaning of — if there ever was a meaning at all? Intuitively, "language" is not quite the right term there. Even if there is a fictional language in that fictional setting, the representative samples of writing aren't necessarily valid samples of it — especially if the authors never bothered to actually construct a language for those samples to be sampled from.)

> the "artist" shuffling around a pile of salt whilst on his knees for hours each day

My argument there is that a lot of people are conflating something being "bad art" with that thing being "not art." But they don't do it all the time. They still use "art" to mean "art", as well as using it to mean "good art." They'll use "artful" or "evocative" to talk about "good art", but they'll use "artistic" to talk about any "art", good or bad.

Art, like writing or music, is an act of communication. Art is seemingly described as "good" when it's powerful; that is, when it successfully communicates something, perhaps impactfully.

That has nothing to do with aesthetics, of course. Awful images can be good art, if they're powerfully awful images.

Bad art, then, is powerless: it fails to communicate. But this still doesn't mean it's not art.

Art isn't opacity; doing a really bad job of making art doesn't make the thing less art. It makes it lesser art — lesser according to some societal ranking function — but that's not the same thing as becoming less like what people mean when they say "art."

People who are speaking unintelligibly (perhaps because they're very drunk, say) are still speaking, rather than "making noises." They're still attempting to communicate an idea through the medium of sound to others, and that's what makes that noise they're producing "speech." Intelligibility doesn't come into the question of "is it speech." It only comes into the question of "is it a successful act of speech."

A human born in the wild, though, with no exposure to other sapient minds capable of engaging in exchange of ideas, isn't "speaking" when they make mouth noises. They don't even have the concept of "speech." They're not attempting to communicate any ideas to others. There are no others.

Art is, AFAICT, the same.

Re: There Should Be No Computer Art (1971) [pdf]

#84
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A computer works with symbols. A brush works with marks. The latter is a larger infinity. It's like the difference between digital and analog. Or raster and vector. Or map and territory.

Surely maps are a larger infinity than territories? I can easily draw maps of territories that do not, have not, and even cannot exist. Likewise symbols and brushmarks. I can describe brushmarks that could never be physically realized.

But those map-artifacts are not real things. They are just symbols.

Re: There Should Be No Computer Art (1971) [pdf]

#85
My point of view is that "if a human touches anything and it changes things, it can be called art". Hardware, programs, languages and the all other things that computers are made of were created by humans. So, everything that computer generates is also a result of a group of human work which we come to the solution that even this comment can be called art and claimed. That doesn't change it is a "bad" art but it is art.

Re: There Should Be No Computer Art (1971) [pdf]

#86

As a high school student in the mid-1980's, I was the first to submit "computer art" to a county art contest. There being no appropriate category, it was submitted as a "print" (via previously unheard-of use of a dot-matrix printer, metal impacting inked cloth ribbon). Apparently the submission caused a great deal of consternation among the judges, some thinking it a grand advancement of arts, and others appalled at…

Do you still have the "print" ? :)

Re: There Should Be No Computer Art (1971) [pdf]

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any piece of work that does not speak for itself, i dont consider art. The works of the great masters can be appreciated even by children. They speak for themselves.

Be careful here, because even those that seem to speak for themselves require (cultural) context to appreciate fully . Take Rembrandt's portrait of St. Bartholomew. It's unquestionably a skilled production, and aesthetically pleasing. But it's also, on its face, just an old guy holding a knife. If you learn the guy's name from the plaque next to the frame, and you know the word "saint" and are familiar with the reaso…

Well, I'm not an art collector or have any deep interest in art. Partly because I'm ignorant, with a dash of stupid and very broke.

That being said I can appreciate workmanship, artisanal detail and peserverance of craftsmanship - whether a person builds a table, lays bricks, sculpts statues, or paints like Rembrandt. Where lifelong sweat and blood drips on a piece of work, it leaves an indellible mark of both talent and absurb obsession.

It's hard to get that feeling in abstract art. It feels like a my toddler niece lashed out on a canvas and some pompus grey beard is telling me about emotional turmoil being expressed on a canvas. That turns my stomach. It's elitist and my eyes are too poor or it's just crap.

The argument ofcourse becomes photorealism isn't art. My very ignorant view says art should capture the moment. While imagery/photography should capture a moment.

Re: There Should Be No Computer Art (1971) [pdf]

#88
post #21

His argument is very time/context dependent. Our understanding of computer art is quite different now, in 2021, than it was in 1971 since the capabilities and ease of use of computers are very different. His point about art dealers is still interesting though.

I find the article quite compelling, honestly. If anything, reframing conversations about computer-generated products from "what were the methods of production" to "whom does the production serve" is even more relevant today than it was in 1971.

Yeah that's fair, although the methods of production are much more accessible today. Arguably more accessible than traditional art materials, so I think he would be less hostile today.
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