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On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

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Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#81

Post by tweetle_beetle »

lettergram wrote: post #49

As someone who’s spent a lot of time in and around farms. I even bought a farm last week! This is an accurate depiction for the vast majority of farms. It’s an industry where you have a high over head cost (want to start raising cattle - $300k land, $50k equipment, $30k housing / barn, $20k fencing, $10k to start a herd - profit in 2-3 years). This scales well. Get some more land, you can keep the equipment running l…

Do you really need a whole farm just to provide nutrition for you family, even if it does have some livestock, or is there more to it than that? I remember reading about some amazing results that can be achieved on very small patches of land, with the right techniques, tools and planning. The official website is light on details, this article is better [2].

[1] https://www.themarketgardener.com/ [2] https://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-04-01/a-model-for-pr...

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#82

Post by andrew_ »

ainiriand wrote: post #13

As a vegan, I am concerned about the cruel treatment of farm animals. Losing family farms only aggravates the problem in this price race against the bigger actors in dairy production. While dairy is not strictly necessary for grown ups, I recognise that it will be present for some time so we should care about how it is produced. Dairy should be more expensive than it is now, similar to what happens to meat.

As a human who is concerned with the treatment of bull (male) calfs born on dairy farms and their treatment for the production of veal, I have absolutely no clue why being a vegan has any pertinence. Why is it such common practice to insufferably proclaim one's ethos as a vegan?

In all seriousness, the conditions under which bull calfs for veal production is abhorrent, and I have great difficulty in balance sympathy for the plight of dairy with the practices of the industry. While the article mentions CAFOs, which are the largest contributors to veal production, I'd been hard-pressed to find a family run dairy farm in my home, midwestern state, which didn't at the least sell their bull calfs to outfits that do produce veal.

Next time you see that on the menu, take a moment to think about where it's coming from and how it's made.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#83

Post by shever »

efiecho wrote: post #46
ainiriand wrote: post #13

As a vegan, I am concerned about the cruel treatment of farm animals. Losing family farms only aggravates the problem in this price race against the bigger actors in dairy production. While dairy is not strictly necessary for grown ups, I recognise that it will be present for some time so we should care about how it is produced. Dairy should be more expensive than it is now, similar to what happens to meat.

> While dairy is not strictly necessary for grown ups, I recognise that it will be present for some time so we should care about how it is produced. Dairy should be more expensive than it is now, similar to what happens to meat. Dairy and meat is part of a healthy diet. While not impossible to do without, health problems often develops with time. That's why most people (84%) who adopts a vegan diet at some point in t…

> Dairy and meat is part of a healthy diet.

Not actually true. For centuries, the traditional Chinese diet did not include dairy and minimised meat consumption too. The oft-trotted-out trope of calcium in dairy is misleading (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-and-milk...) and even relatively small amounts of meat and dairy increase the possibility of prostate cancer (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18398033)

Speaking as a vegan of over 10 years, who is mentally sharper and healthier than I was a decade ago, I also don't agree with the "steep decline in health, both physical and mental". I do agree that certain nutrients, such as B12, need to be supplemented, but the Institute of Medicine recommends that everyone over the age of 50 supplement B12 whether vegan or not.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#84

Post by dakna »

lettergram wrote: post #71
DC1350 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn’t you feed a family high quality food for a few decades with $500k? This seems like a lot of effort if you aren’t planning on making a profit.

That’s fair, but two posits (1) you can’t really get high quality food outside a lot of sourcing and effort. As an example, I grow purple green beans that taste better than any green bean I’ve every bought. You may be able to get that particular green bean from a specialty shop, but I’m doing this with 30 different plants on 1-2 acres. I can harvest and eat the plants the same day as well (which has far more nutritio…

I'm in a fairly similar situation, albeit on a smaller scale (6 acres) and I do this for reasons you already mentioned (nutrition, inflation hedge) plus climate change. I have years of experience growing veggies in my backyard and I agree, it takes a lot of money to get the same quality food elsewhere, and some specialties are out of reach. It's also a lot of fun.

I'm also planning for retirement in the 2030s and I'm trying to funnel my software engineering money into a small productive farm/market garden that produces enough to make a small profit and hire some help when needed. I haven't found a good way to offset my initial investment costs as a beginning farmer against my regular income from my main job, but I just started to learn more about Schedule F Profit/Loss from farming. Any pointers on what to read or CPA recommendations are highly appreciated.

Greetings from Hardiness Zone 6, which I assume will turn into Zone 7 within my lifetime.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#85

Post by 14 »

I love how this article mentions Canada’s Dairy Cartel. They make it seem like such a good thing. It is not. We pay very high prices for milk and dairy products. I would rather a free market where those who can provide cheap and quality get the market share. Instead there is no competition the system is really screwed and definitely not endorsed by all Canadians. One gallon of milk costs us about $6Cad. Mean while if you have a good year and your cows really produce well you are only allowed to bring to market there set amount you produce. So yes Canada has a dairy cartel that price fixed and regulates the entire market but is allowed.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#87

Post by duxup »

Farming as a business gets idealized in the US and there's often this concept of a good old days when family farming was profitable and stable.

But historically speaking farming has always been a boom and bust industry. Even during the land rush days in the US the amount of space granted per farm was barely enough / not enough to scrape by, even at that time.

Now everything is so heavily tied up with legislation to try to recreate appropriate market conditions that I suspect whatever the actual market would be without all that legislation is an unknown.

I grew up around folks trying to scrape by on their family farms living at the whims of markets that can make or break them over the course of just a few years. As much as I like the ideal of the family farm, I'm not sure it is, and not sure it ever was a good way to make a living (outside some exceptions).

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#88

Post by cies »

andrew_ wrote: post #82
ainiriand wrote: post #13

As a vegan, I am concerned about the cruel treatment of farm animals. Losing family farms only aggravates the problem in this price race against the bigger actors in dairy production. While dairy is not strictly necessary for grown ups, I recognise that it will be present for some time so we should care about how it is produced. Dairy should be more expensive than it is now, similar to what happens to meat.

As a human who is concerned with the treatment of bull (male) calfs born on dairy farms and their treatment for the production of veal, I have absolutely no clue why being a vegan has any pertinence. Why is it such common practice to insufferably proclaim one's ethos as a vegan? In all seriousness, the conditions under which bull calfs for veal production is abhorrent, and I have great difficulty in balance sympathy…

> the conditions under which bull calfs for veal production is abhorrent

To you!

To me (also vegan) any animal in a cage is abhorrent. I want to be free and wild and I also want all others to be free and wild. Maybe some humans deserve to be caged for their behavior. Animals can never be guilty...

> Next time you see that on the menu, take a moment to think about where it's coming from and how it's made.

Exactly. Was someone (NOT something) caged? Was a baby taken away from a mother, right after birth, in order to steal (=take what is not given) the milk that mum produces for baby?

And after this consideration: go for one of the plant options on the menu!

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#89

Post by cies »

duxup wrote: post #87

Farming as a business gets idealized in the US and there's often this concept of a good old days when family farming was profitable and stable. But historically speaking farming has always been a boom and bust industry. Even during the land rush days in the US the amount of space granted per farm was barely enough / not enough to scrape by, even at that time. Now everything is so heavily tied up with legislation to t…

> Farming as a business gets idealized

And I understand that in case of plant growers. In case of livestock exploiters I dont see what's so "cool" about it.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#90

Post by duxup »

cies wrote: post #89
duxup wrote: post #87

Farming as a business gets idealized in the US and there's often this concept of a good old days when family farming was profitable and stable. But historically speaking farming has always been a boom and bust industry. Even during the land rush days in the US the amount of space granted per farm was barely enough / not enough to scrape by, even at that time. Now everything is so heavily tied up with legislation to t…

> Farming as a business gets idealized And I understand that in case of plant growers. In case of livestock exploiters I dont see what's so "cool" about it.

I guess I was speaking more generally but as far as livestock there's certainly plenty if idolizing that too, even if some don't.
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