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Overview of Early Electric Cars

lowtechmagazine.com

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Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#81

Post by Hypx »

DuskStar wrote: post #79
Hypx wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing stopping FCEVs from being as efficient as BEVs. Even now, huge improvements are being found like 90% efficient electrolysis[1]. Future improvements in hydrogen and fuel cell technology could close the gap entirely. Like I said, you're repeating many arguments that are a mirror of the arguments made against BEVs. It's pretty ridiculous to just repeat anti-EVs for something else while being pro-EVs. The…

90% efficient electrolysis doesn't matter when "getting hydrogen from the pump to your car's fuel tank" has 20+ percent energy losses. And from the tanker trailer to the pump. And... This comes from the inherent thermodynamic inefficiencies of compressing something, letting it expand, and then compressing it again.

Those losses can be made much less than that. Theoretical minimal losses are on the order of 1-2kWh per kg, and in practice not much more than that[1]. Further efficiency improvements can get reality even closer to theoretical.

Most of these arguments are increasingly outdated, as I mentioned before. We're at the point where hundreds of billions of dollars are being spent on hydrogen right now[2]. So naysayers are more accurately described as being out of touch with latest events and not people with any special knowledge.

[1] https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/9013_energy_requirement...

[2] https://www.jwnenergy.com/article/2020/7/8/europe-unveils-pl...

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#82

Post by allannienhuis »

rsj_hn wrote: post #34
samcheng wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This metaphor doesn’t make sense to me. As a matter of course, a gasoline car needs gasoline; unless you live on a farm with delivered fuel, that means going to the gas station for it. An electric car needs only electricity to operate, which is already distributed via wires to everyone’s home. Both cars need tires; electric cars also need significantly less scheduled maintenance. No oil changes, no timing belt, etc.

The point being that estimating the expectation of something by excluding an important part of the event space yields a false estimate. No one believes that everyone always charges their cars at home and that charging stations are not needed, otherwise there would be no demand to build them. But when called out on the inconvenience of these stations there is a retreat to "oh, I only charge at home" and so that is the…

I've had my model y for six months now, and I have not needed to charge it away from home once yet. Yes, it's the pandemic so I'm not making long trips, but it's met my regular trip needs without compromise.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#83

Post by Robotbeat »

sidpatil wrote: post #73
Robotbeat wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need outlets in apartment parking lots (they already have light poles, and block heater outlets are common in northern areas) and off-street parking. It’s pretty cheap to just add outlets.

Assuming that the existing wiring can support the increased demand.

It used to be pretty common for electricity demand to double every decade. Residential electricity usage more than doubled from 1950 to 1960, and then again more than doubled from 1960 to 1970 (and then about doubling again by 1990). A lot of that was air conditioning becoming common and then ubiquitous. Electric cars will be able to be more responsive to grid constraints than air conditioners ever were.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=38572

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#84

Post by Robotbeat »

clouddrover wrote: post #66
Robotbeat wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don’t. Tesla tried and stopped after a short time. It’s just not worth it as charging has got much better. Charging scales better than any other new load we’ve added to the grid (such as air conditioning) as the vast majority of charging will be flexible within roughly 24 hours. After doubling like once a decade or so for a century, electricity demand has been constant or even falling for the last 5-10 years, wh…

> Tesla tried and stopped after a short time. It’s just not worth it as charging has got much better. Nio has succeeded where Tesla failed. Nio does swapping and charging: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33670482/nio-swappable-ba... https://insideevs.com/news/448165/nio-completed-1-millionth-...

Tesla succeeded. It just wasn't worth it. Not in the States, at least. It's quite possible it makes more sense elsewhere.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#85

Post by Robotbeat »

erik_seaberg wrote: post #77
Robotbeat wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always charge at my AirBNB. Just need an external 120V outlet. An RV-style outlet would work for L2 power levels. That’s not that uncommon.

Is it hard to find one with a garage rather than street parking? They don’t seem to offer a search filter for that.

Each time I've just parked in a driveway and ran a cord to an external outlet.

BTW, 63% of US housing units have a garage or a carport. That doesn't even count those that have just a driveway. I have a garage, but I solely park and charge outside (my garage is my COVID work-from-home office space away from the kids...). In a place that experiences 4 seasons.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#86

Post by bobthepanda »

Robotbeat wrote: post #83
sidpatil wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming that the existing wiring can support the increased demand.

It used to be pretty common for electricity demand to double every decade. Residential electricity usage more than doubled from 1950 to 1960, and then again more than doubled from 1960 to 1970 (and then about doubling again by 1990). A lot of that was air conditioning becoming common and then ubiquitous. Electric cars will be able to be more responsive to grid constraints than air conditioners ever were. https://www.…

EVs are very energy intensive, and in a location of the building that never had such high energy requirements; parking garages are one of the pieces of the building that is extremely optimized and so may be complicated or expensive to retrofit.

Building codes have had to be adjusted to accommodate, but new housing is a fraction of the total building supply in any given area, and retrofitting can be nearly four times the cost of a new installation. And these building codes usually target a <10% amount of EV spaces. Anecdotally, I work in an office building that meets these codes and is all LEED-compliant and stuff, yet demand for the limited EV spaces outstrips supply and you basically get rationed access to it on a first-come first-serve basis.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#87

Post by [deleted] »

Hypx wrote: post #76
pedrocr wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuel-cell proponents keep claiming they're just around the corner but the issues with them are fundamental. ~3x the total energy use because of all the inefficiencies, and needing an all new infrastructure compared to BEVs where the grid is already everywhere. If FCEVs show up and are actually usable that would be fine but I wouldn't bet on it. They're mostly brought out as an argument for staying on ICEs until, real…

There's nothing stopping FCEVs from being as efficient as BEVs. Even now, huge improvements are being found like 90% efficient electrolysis[1]. Future improvements in hydrogen and fuel cell technology could close the gap entirely. Like I said, you're repeating many arguments that are a mirror of the arguments made against BEVs. It's pretty ridiculous to just repeat anti-EVs for something else while being pro-EVs. The…

[deleted]

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#88

Post by ianai »

cujo wrote: post #61
mattlondon wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

250 miles is within range of a bunch of different cars - and not just Tesla or luxury brands but also Fords, Skodas, Nissan, and Volkswagens too. At UK speed limits that is like 3.5 continuous hours driven at 70mph (in reality you'd not be doing 70 all the time either)... Most people would take a bio break and maybe a coffee in there somewhere and fast charging for 15 mins at 100+kw can give some decent top-up (e.g.…

The catch is when it's cold out. I'm in a similar situation. ~120 miles one way. My Nissan Leaf gets ~140 miles per charge, and it works fine in the spring/summer/fall. In the winter I get about 90 miles on full charge, so not only am I stopping to charge, but I have to be at full charge when I leave. Also consider that the only fast charging station on my route is right around 30 miles in, and I'm running "on fumes"…

Yes for me the weather requires AC for most of the year in addition to significant periods of cold weather. There's also the significant lack of charging infrastructure.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#89

Post by dvh »

agumonkey wrote: post #46
dvh wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perfect EV (for me) was already made. Citroen Ami. $6000, 75km range.

You tried it yourself ? (just curious)

They don't sell it in my country :(

Traditional car manufacturers simply don't want our money. It needs new companies like Tesla to actually make and sell the damn product.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#90

Post by swiley »

mattlondon wrote: post #25

It is interesting to see sentiment change over the years on hacker news. First EVs were too expensive. Then they were too slow/couldn't tow. Then the range was too small. Now people are griping that they can't "refuel" in 5 mins. I guess we will see what the next excuse becomes for people to continue polluting and why EVs "aren't ready" for their hypothetical/once-a-year/niche needs. Sigh.

Where I live I'm pretty sure all the electrical power comes from natural gas turbines. So EVs pollute just like regular cars.

There's actual transit and the local government has their act together though so I don't drive at all.

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