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Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

martin.kleppmann.com

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Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#81

Post by diffeomorphism »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #18
RedShift1 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People use the cloud because they are being forced through the software user interfaces. Working with local files takes increasingly more steps compared to cloud based solutions. So I wouldn't exactly say that people are ok with it, it feels more like they choice is being made for them.

If web pages could be more easily given access to a directory on your filesystem, Google Docs could more easily show you you files in your Documents folder.

If web pages had a harder time getting their fingers on online data, that would give the same outcome.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#83

Post by pdimitar »

doggodaddo78 wrote: post #55
pdimitar wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to underestimate the pressure from the market. At one point the younger generation does not even remember there was a local-first software. Sadly the relentless efforts of the corporations are paying off. That doesn't mean people are okay with it. It means their choice is made for them.

I know plenty of enterprise guys who won't store critical documents, designs, code, or IP in cloud services. Also, local untethers from SaaS changes (prices/features), snooping, data loss, hacking, etc. at the expense of supporting, backup/restore, disaster recovery, and securing it yourself. It's fine if you have a competent IT shop and already have the scale to do it, but it's not the first choice for small, non-te…

Indeed, it seems there's a market opportunity there, isn't it?

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#84

Post by Rygian »

Geee wrote: post #42

You can own your data if you use client-side encryption with cloud. When encrypted, you don't have to trust the cloud provider. This opens up new possibilities such as P2P networks with fair pricing, no provider lock-in, equal access and censorship resistance. I'm excited about Sia / Skynet which enables these kind of apps.

Client-side encryption could help Confidentiality and Integrity, but still leaves you powerless on Availability. If your cloud provider decides to have a glitch, changes their offer, raises fees, … your whole setup is impacted by the cloud provider.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#85

Post by oblib »

dvt wrote: post #3

These kinds of ideas always get traction here on HN or similar places (slashdot), but I think that ship has long sailed. People, by and large, seem to be totally okay with storing data in the cloud -- from Dropbox, to Google Docs, to InVision. All things considered, data breaches are rare, and if they do happen, they're usually to be blamed on configuration blunders, not the services at large. Other than a few highly…

>>All things considered, data breaches are rare

Data breaches are not the only consideration. There's not many things more important to a business than their data and putting that entirely in a 3rd party's hands at a remote location only is very risky and could be catastrophic.

It's one thing to send a copy of a blueprint of a product design to China to have it manufactured and quite another to send them your only copy of it.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#86

Post by higerordermap »

rklaehn wrote: post #78

Local first is often just plain the better technical solution. E.g. you put a pin on a map to mark the parking spot, and want to share it with somebody standing right next to you. But it does not work because the connection to some data center 1000 km away is flaky. This is just plain bad design. Or you want to print something or get two machines to interact. Any remote third party you bring into this interaction is…

In developing nations, we often don't even have good internet. Uploading a 20 MiB file to Dropbox may fail a few times. But these days developers often forget these kind of situations.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#87

Post by oscargrouch »

pdimitar wrote: post #80
oscargrouch wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just that, but there also a lot of cases that the local-first software will perform much better given the resources might be cached. If you mix the two crowds: the people that actually care with the people that will just want faster apps, you get a powerful bootstrap traction. Lets also not forget that things might just vanish and when we are able to collect them and make personal relations that make sense to us,…

> If you mix the two crowds: the people that actually care with the people that will just want faster apps, you get a powerful bootstrap traction. Do we really though? Most people just buy a new phone, idly agree to all cloud sync stuff that the Android vendor has slapped on it and only notice "hey, I have 500GB free storage for the next 6 months!" and that's the end of it. There is a market for local-first. Absolute…

I agree with you. But that's because the state-of-the-art in clients are cloud hungry applications, giving their parent companies have much to profit from this behavior.

Local-first is a technological sophistication from the current tech status-quo, so it requires more labor to get at a point where it can stand against the current cloud-first applications.

We will only be able to see how far it can go, once the next-gen applications reach the same level.

It will be a harsh competition, but if we can just ship the platform along with it, and at least Android make it possible, users wont even notice, because it was the dev's that made that decision for them. And the dev's will do it because it might make their apps a little better, more responsive and fail proof.

Of course this all must happen before 5G or part of the leverage is gone unfortunately..

But we need at least try anyway, because a world where all the information is centralized on the FAANG titans is a world where freedom, civil and human rights are constantly endangered(especially in the age of AI automation).

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#88

Post by cinnamon-bun »

pdimitar wrote: post #11

I am completely behind the idea and would work full time on it (if I had my time for myself) but all such documents or sites are all talk and no code and it's getting tiring. I get that they want to inspire, to show data backing up the idea that people are open to that software model, and in general to give hope and inform but... I am getting way too cynical and I can't help but wonder if actually writing a tool that…

Have you seen Earthstar?

https://github.com/earthstar-project/earthstar

It's like localStorage but it syncs and can be used for collaborative apps.

The point is to avoid the economic incentives of commercially supported software, though, so indeed it's made by volunteers in their spare time.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#89

Post by pdimitar »

cinnamon-bun wrote: post #88
pdimitar wrote: post #11

I am completely behind the idea and would work full time on it (if I had my time for myself) but all such documents or sites are all talk and no code and it's getting tiring. I get that they want to inspire, to show data backing up the idea that people are open to that software model, and in general to give hope and inform but... I am getting way too cynical and I can't help but wonder if actually writing a tool that…

Have you seen Earthstar? https://github.com/earthstar-project/earthstar It's like localStorage but it syncs and can be used for collaborative apps. The point is to avoid the economic incentives of commercially supported software, though, so indeed it's made by volunteers in their spare time.

That's actually quite interesting! Thank you for linking it.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#90

Post by pdimitar »

oscargrouch wrote: post #87
pdimitar wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you mix the two crowds: the people that actually care with the people that will just want faster apps, you get a powerful bootstrap traction. Do we really though? Most people just buy a new phone, idly agree to all cloud sync stuff that the Android vendor has slapped on it and only notice "hey, I have 500GB free storage for the next 6 months!" and that's the end of it. There is a market for local-first. Absolute…

I agree with you. But that's because the state-of-the-art in clients are cloud hungry applications, giving their parent companies have much to profit from this behavior. Local-first is a technological sophistication from the current tech status-quo, so it requires more labor to get at a point where it can stand against the current cloud-first applications. We will only be able to see how far it can go, once the next-…

Oh, I completely agree, especially with the point that most end users wouldn't notice the under-the-hood changes (except maybe for apps working better when connectivity is scarce or missing).

And yes, the world is heading into a dystopia. All of us that care better prepare some big ZFS clusters for redundant data and well-connected ISPs so we can still exchange data in an encrypted and decentralized manner.

But I feel that it's a lost battle. We missed the train. There's still time but it is shrinking every year.

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