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Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

theguardian.com

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Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#81

Post by Karunamon »

dmix wrote: post #11

The article mentions Galileo: > “They were political trials and the penalties of exile and death inflicted on Dante, my dear ancestor, are unjust and have never been cancelled as happened with Galileo Galilei,” But his heresy 'case' wasn't ever officially overturned by the Catholic Church. Various modern Pope's just said some nice things about him, but didn't go as far as over ruling the heresey charge. Assuming that…

That's probably never going to happen. Galileo's heresy charge was for, among other things, denying the trinity (not his views on how the planets were laid out, as the common myth goes).

That very matter was the cause of some consternation in the early ADs, but it was long settled (to the tune of about 1200 years) by the time of Galileo.

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#83

Post by smegger001 »

Karunamon wrote: post #81
dmix wrote: post #11

The article mentions Galileo: > “They were political trials and the penalties of exile and death inflicted on Dante, my dear ancestor, are unjust and have never been cancelled as happened with Galileo Galilei,” But his heresy 'case' wasn't ever officially overturned by the Catholic Church. Various modern Pope's just said some nice things about him, but didn't go as far as over ruling the heresey charge. Assuming that…

That's probably never going to happen. Galileo's heresy charge was for, among other things, denying the trinity ( not his views on how the planets were laid out, as the common myth goes). That very matter was the cause of some consternation in the early ADs, but it was long settled (to the tune of about 1200 years) by the time of Galileo.

as i was given to understand WHAT he was charged with had little to do with WHY he was actually charged. Which was calling Pope Urban the then current Pope with whome up to that point had been something of a sponser a simpleton. in print. this was after made disparaging remarks about Jesuits. At that point they pretty much were just looking for a excuse to convict him.

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#84

Post by smegger001 »

nafey wrote: post #78
Metacelsus wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since DNA is inherited as discrete molecules, it's most likely he has 0% identical-by-descent. (Except if he's a direct male-line descendant.) But I don't think genetics has anything to say about legal standing.

> Except if he's a direct male-line descendant Would direct male descendants have more common DNA? Why is that?

Y chromosome is responsible for sexual differentiation creating males. it is only passed father to son.

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#85

Post by wahern »

peteretep wrote: post #70
x86ARMsRace wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This causes some interesting questions about continuity of accountability for governments. I wonder how long you can hold a government accountable for the actions of its previous administrations. How many years can you go back? How many iterations of a state can you hold accountable too?

However many is politically expedient. China, in particular, has an exceptionally long memory.

Did China have a legal system that made the emperor accountable to any temporal authority? (As a legal matter, not simply a practical one.) In the received political systems of the West, authority has at least been nominally shared for millennia, albeit across varying dimensions and with brief lapses into absolute rule.

For example, while as a practical matter the Roman Catholic Pope's role during the Holy Roman Empire was largely constrained to spiritual and religious matters, the Pope nonetheless retained significant secular authority (e.g. over lands, etc) that the Emperor was obliged to respect. Failing to do so would result in illegality. Likewise the Emperor was at least in principle equal with other monarchs in Europe, so had obligations viz-a-viz them that couldn't be unilaterally skirted. Contrast that with the Westphalian system, where legal sovereignty is absolute within a territorial domain and where failure to respect an interstate obligation doesn't necessarily manifest as any kind of domestic illegality. Thus, when a state violates a treaty there's no expectation that its citizens construe the violation as illegitimate and to act and be responsible accordingly. (Modern international human rights theory being a very recent exception.)

I know Chinese legal, political, and religious systems were rich and sophisticated, but AFAIU in Imperial China, which accounts for most of the past 2000 years of mainland Chinese political history, the emperor was legally accountable to no temporal authority. Though, of course, it behooved emperors to abstain from exercising that absolute authority, obey legal and other norms, and adhere to their heavenly mandate.

It's an important distinction because it reflects cultures' (and thus its peoples') conceptions of power and legitimacy, which in turn directly constrains what is practically achievable by authority figures within and without their domain. It's no accident the Westphalian system of states arose in the West, nor the successful, widespread systemization of democratic political systems. Similarly, it's not surprising why Westerns in particular (which is not to say uniquely) would find interesting such an abstruse question regarding the exoneration of Dante.

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#86

Post by Talanes »

imgabe wrote: post #54
x86ARMsRace wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This causes some interesting questions about continuity of accountability for governments. I wonder how long you can hold a government accountable for the actions of its previous administrations. How many years can you go back? How many iterations of a state can you hold accountable too?

Empty gestures like this do not hold any one accountable. The people responsible for whatever injustice occurred are long dead and there is nothing you can do to them. This is a waste of time and energy that could be better spent improving life for people who are alive today in some tangible way. Is this going to feed someone who's hungry? Shelter someone who's homeless? Do anything that will make any actual differen…

>Is this going to feed someone who's hungry? Shelter someone who's homeless? Do anything that will make any actual difference in the life of any living person? No? Then why are we wasting time on it?

I don't really understand the point of inquiries like this. Obviously you are here "wasting" time that could be spent on those activities as well, and yet you (rightfully) aren't hostile toward yourself for it.

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#87

Post by athriren »

delecti wrote: post #52
pen2l wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we do a lot of things in our society for their symbolic value to formalize moral values and to demonstrate that we recognize past wrongs. In that regard I don't see anything wrong with this undertaking.

That's not what I asked though. I'm not asking whether or not Dante should have his conviction overturned. Though on that note, I'm not convinced it should be, because it seems his crimes were for actual corruption while in public office, and waging war against the government. But no, I'm pointing out that it seems like his conviction was already overturned, so what exactly is the complaint?

i love this kind of chutzpah.

dante is exiled from a city he lovingly intersperses throughout his fiction in some of the most famous and beautiful and utterly complex poetry of all time by one of the most famously corrupt rulers in all of human history for things he wrote ~in his poems~ and over 700 years later the sum total of human technology allows someone to say his political conviction by a no longer existing state is justified because of these thought crimes on a site that notionally believes in freedom of speech or at the very least thought.

hope it is better wherever you are dante.

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#88

Post by skissane »

delecti wrote: post #18

Is this necessary? This article from 2008 seems to indicate that his sentence had been rescinded. https://web.archive.org/web/20111230060902/http://www.telegr... Also, it looks like he was convicted under the Holy Roman Empire, which doesn't really exist anymore. I'm not sure who there is to overturn his conviction.

> Also, it looks like he was convicted under the Holy Roman Empire, which doesn't really exist anymore. I'm not sure who there is to overturn his conviction.

When Dante was convicted in 1302, Florence was the Republic of Florence. The Republic of Florence was subject to the Holy Roman Empire, but still remained a distinct legal jurisdiction (like a state.) The Republic of Florence was replaced by the Grand Duchy of Tuscany in 1569, which ruled Florence (with some interruptions) until 1859, when it was conquered by the Kingdom of Sardinia, which soon became the modern Kingdom of Italy, which in turn became the present-day Italian Republic after WW2. Each successor entity inherited the legal rights of its predecessor entity – the Italian Republic inherited the legal rights of the Kingdom of Italy, which in turn inherited the legal rights of the Kingdom of Sardinia, which in turn inherited the legal rights of the Grand Duchy of Tuscany, which in turn inherited the legal rights of the Republic of Florence. One of the legal rights of the Republic of Florence was to rescind the legal judgements of its courts, even posthumously. Hence, that legal right has been inherited, through a chain of successors, by the modern-day Italian Republic, which therefore has a unique legal authority (not possessed by any other jurisdiction) to formally rescind Dante's conviction and sentence. Yes, it is a right of no practical effect, its exercise would be of purely symbolic consequence, but it would be the unique possession of the Italian Republic.

(The succession story I presented – Republic of Florence => Grand Duchy of Tuscany => Kingdom of Sardinia => Kingdom of Italy => Italian Republic – is no doubt somewhat simplified, but I don't think fleshing out those added details would change the ultimate conclusion.)

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#89

Post by edgyquant »

skissane wrote: post #88
delecti wrote: post #18

Is this necessary? This article from 2008 seems to indicate that his sentence had been rescinded. https://web.archive.org/web/20111230060902/http://www.telegr... Also, it looks like he was convicted under the Holy Roman Empire, which doesn't really exist anymore. I'm not sure who there is to overturn his conviction.

> Also, it looks like he was convicted under the Holy Roman Empire, which doesn't really exist anymore. I'm not sure who there is to overturn his conviction. When Dante was convicted in 1302, Florence was the Republic of Florence. The Republic of Florence was subject to the Holy Roman Empire, but still remained a distinct legal jurisdiction (like a state.) The Republic of Florence was replaced by the Grand Duchy of T…

As a side note the unifications of Italy and Germany are fascinating history and the culture that emerged due to them is also likely the reason those are the two most famous historical fascist nations (and why it was born in those places.) The nationalism required to (and built up for the purpose) unify the countries gave rise to ultra nationalism as generations of wanting to have a greater nature built a population who thought conquest was the only method to achieve peace and prosperity.

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#90

Post by btilly »

WalterBright wrote: post #27

1302 to today, that's 36 generations. 2 to the 36th means his descendants today have 1 / 70,000,000,000 of his genetic contribution. I'd say they don't have legal standing.

But on the flip side, most people commenting in this thread are descended from Dante. So do we all have standing?
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