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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#81

Post by joelbluminator »

jopsen wrote: post #75
friedman23 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you've fully thought through your position. You making less isn't some altruistic thing. You making less directly contributes to your (already likely wealthy) boss making more. It's not like you making less means the poor live better lives, it's essentially donating money to your employer.

And by switching to a better paying job you end up working somewhere that produces more value per engineer, which in turns makes the world wealthier.. which overall is good :) That said, I don't think it's just a matter of culture. Also just because capitalism likely makes the world better on average, doesn't mean we all have to go ferengi and dedicate our lives to pursuit of maximum profit :D (Perhaps there is a bal…

Huh? If he earns more at Pornhub he makes the world better? Even FAANG is debatable.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#82

Post by eplanit »

alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

That's very interesting, and I'm sincerely glad that you're happy. In the U.S., the value system is (was, at least) about personal ambition, talent, and action which determine if one "should be able to get very rich".

There's no shame in wanting to work for a company and focus on a work-life balance. Americans (again, traditionally) celebrate(d) those with higher ambitions and achievement. In Silicon Valley and the startup world (many of whom are on HN), the entrepreneur/founder vs. employee issue can be very sensitive.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#83

Post by arcticbull »

nickpp wrote: post #57

Just like anything worthwhile is done: through free market competition. Build a successful startup, make some nice money and attract the best in the business to work for you by making them eye-popping offers. This will make your competitors react by raising their pay and with it the whole market. It’s how Silicon Valley reached those salaries after all...

I mean, it's not a great way to raise the salaries of retail and restaurant workers. It's also a terrible way of providing healthcare.

Ultimately it's more a question of supply and demand as to why US SWEs are paid so much.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#84

Post by joelbluminator »

908B64B197 wrote: post #54
jchallis wrote: post #52

One option is to emigrate to the United States, driving up pressure on the engineers who remain. My near-term ancestors all left Germany due to poor wages and a tendency for Bismarck to sacrifice draft-age men in wars, and while moving to the US helped their own status it also did a bit to increase pressure at home.

EU engineers should vote with their feet. That's the only way.

Wont work. Big brother will import talent from Africa, Middle East, India.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#85

Post by arcticbull »

alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

A lot of folks here are calling out the lower pay for SWEs in Europe and Canada as a failure - but also praise the low wealth inequality and low income inequality in Europe and Canada.

You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money.

Well, this is a lot like the housing conversation in the US. "I want my house to go up in value, and be a great investment!" Also: "Why can't I afford a house?"

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

It's not necessarily a failure, it's just a different place to draw the line on social contract. While individual contributors earn less the social safety net also makes it much easier to found and grow a business without the threat of death and guarantees a peaceable minimum standard of living. It's also worth pointing out that salary, especially at high seniority levels, becomes a smaller and smaller part of total compensation.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#86

Post by [deleted] »

ergocoder wrote: post #14
Jyaif wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 3 years in the US you earn significantly more than in 5 years in France, so the vacation and health coverage arguments do not hold, unless you have an expensive illness (>30k$ per year). The job security on the other hand is very real, so if you want to coast at your job, europe is the way to go.

There is absolutely no way to get 500k/year from being just an engineer in Europe. I recall the React creator's base salary is 100k/year in London, and he works at Facebook.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#87

Post by jeofken »

joelbluminator wrote: post #81
jopsen wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And by switching to a better paying job you end up working somewhere that produces more value per engineer, which in turns makes the world wealthier.. which overall is good :) That said, I don't think it's just a matter of culture. Also just because capitalism likely makes the world better on average, doesn't mean we all have to go ferengi and dedicate our lives to pursuit of maximum profit :D (Perhaps there is a bal…

Huh? If he earns more at Pornhub he makes the world better? Even FAANG is debatable.

Defining “better” isn’t easy, but “more valuable” is a falsifiable measure. I hate Facebook and Google but they do provide a lot of value to their customers (advertisers)

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#88

Post by topkai22 »

m00x wrote: post #40
quantumofalpha wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then there is the healthcare system. European healthcare systems are not exactly dream come true either. Range of treatments available/covered and waiting times can be significantly behind the US. US healthcare is actually great for an SWE making bank at a FAANG & co. Just not that amazing for common folks > The US has no guaranteed paternity/maternity leave Top tech companies all have those, it's a fairly cheap pe…

By less than 1 month vacation, I think it's closer to 1-2 weeks/year and that's at big companies. Most of the startups will give you grief if you take more than a week of vacation on top of the holidays. Not all engineers are at FAANG, we can't compare the average to the top tier companies.

I’m unaware of any big companies that do less then two weeks a year of vacation for their salaried employees. There might be some, but it is uncommon.

Across all workers in the U.S., the average after 5 years is 15 vacation days, with 8-10 additional holidays and a more variable amount of sick leave (https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2018/mobile/private-industry-wo...)

Now Americans are notoriously bad about actually taking all our vacation in a year, but the limited data I see suggests that we still on average take more than 2 weeks a year.

Edit- grammar

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#89

Post by tomp »

kube-system wrote: post #80
tomp wrote: post #70

Make non-competes illegal (or, well, unenforceable).

Are non-competes common in Europe?

I have one, though I work in finance (in London). I’ve heard the same for finance / trading companies elsewhere (e.g. Slovenia). Not sure about pure software companies though...

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#90

Post by blunte »

iso1631 wrote: post #69
trcollinson wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I make pretty good money as a consultant. Last year I had 180 hours of saved vacation time (4.5 weeks). I gave up 115.5 hours of that on January 1 because I didn't use it. I expect I will lose a similar amount on next January 1st. I did get 6 federal holidays off. I used a bit of vacation to also take the day after Thanksgiving, the day before Christmas, and New Year's Eve off. I paid $8400 in insurance premiums for…

$200k is £146k I've seen mid-level tech jobs in London banks for £146k which come with 34 days off including state holidays like new years day, christmas, etc £146k for a full time contractor on 226 days a year isn't that much at all - £650 a day, which is in the "Senior developer" range [0] With 30% tax in the US and the cost of health insurance, that would be $68,400 For a staff employee on £146k (which is quite ac…

London is hugely expensive, so tech salaries should be higher there to attract workers.

Also, finance generally pays better than other industries (although banking in Netherlands pays typically low-average); but trading and investment companies pay above average.

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