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Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

tosdr.org

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Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#81

Post by dfxm12 »

LadyCailin wrote: post #29
II2II wrote: post #18

On the first day of a university course, several hundred students asked to line up and sign a two page agreement in order to access computing resources necessary for the course. When my turn came, I asked where I could read it without holding up the entire line. They were shocked that anyone would ask such a question, though they provided me a space to read over the document. If blindly signing a contract one of the…

Just out of curiosity, what happened if you declined to sign? You flunk out of the course? Reading the TOS is pointless anyways, when declining them is very problematic for you.

Yeah, too many times you don't get to read the TOS of something until after you've already signed up/paid.

I'm sure you could bring up legal action, but everyone knows that's cost prohibitive...

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#82

Post by Simon_says »

itronitron wrote: post #17
ourmandave wrote: post #5

Then the second biggest lie is: We use cookies to give you the best experience on our website. If you continue to use this site we will assume you are happy with it. [Ok] [No] [Privacy Policy] Actual text from the www.gdpr.eu cookie consent pop-up. =)

I always thought "We value your privacy" was the biggest lie on the internet.

They value it. Here's how much:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/11/reddit-users-are-the-least-v...

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#83

Post by brightball »

joekrill wrote: post #70
II2II wrote: post #18

On the first day of a university course, several hundred students asked to line up and sign a two page agreement in order to access computing resources necessary for the course. When my turn came, I asked where I could read it without holding up the entire line. They were shocked that anyone would ask such a question, though they provided me a space to read over the document. If blindly signing a contract one of the…

It's absolutely astounding to me how many folks blindly sign legal documents. Especially employment related. Whenever I've pushed back on an employment contract, NDA, or similar it's always met with sudden confusion - as though this has never happened before. In fairness, it's almost never met with negatively. But it shows that no one else has ever bothered to question it. And when I talk to colleagues I definitely g…

Same. I’ve never seen anyone balk. If anything it shows attention to detail.

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#84

Post by wittyreference »

alsetmusic wrote: post #45
gorgoiler wrote: post #6

If a website knows I didn't really read a contract, can they claim I am bound by it? I like to hope that the time-spent-reading is logged somewhere. Should it come up in court, Website.com would be required to disclose their logs which would show that I spent all of 1.35s reading their terms and conditions, most of which was spent scrolling. Another puerile hack of mine is to sign a document with the name "I do not a…

I don’t think time spent would matter if someone took the deliberate action of clicking “Accept.” It’s like arguing that you didn’t read a contract before you signed. You still signed. I’m not arguing in favor of TOS. I just don’t buy this. The “I do not agree,” method reminds me of the tactics of “sovereign citizens.” They try to game things via highly specific language. People think they can loophole the system, bu…

Actually signing a contract doesn't begin and end at a signature. It requires a meeting of the minds, which the signature is meant to represent. A contract without a meeting of the minds - such as a contract presented in a context coercing the counterparty not to have an attorney parse it for them - is invalid, signature or no.

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#86

Post by mech422 »

CodeGlitch wrote: post #80
joekrill wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's absolutely astounding to me how many folks blindly sign legal documents. Especially employment related. Whenever I've pushed back on an employment contract, NDA, or similar it's always met with sudden confusion - as though this has never happened before. In fairness, it's almost never met with negatively. But it shows that no one else has ever bothered to question it. And when I talk to colleagues I definitely g…

The problem arises especially when the document is written in legalese. I also feel like I'm not really qualified to understand these documents - they are generally written for people who have the appropriate qualifications. For example when buying a property in the UK, the soliciter will be the one parses the legal documents. It's crazy to think that normal people are expected to fully understand these, and it doesn…

I feel this is one of the major problems with most TOSs...

You generally don't have a lawyer around to explain every TOS you come across, so people ignore them and hope for the best.

Hmm - I wonder if there would be a niche for a website that explains specific, common TOSs in easy to understand terms?

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#87

Post by CodeGlitch »

mech422 wrote: post #86
CodeGlitch wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem arises especially when the document is written in legalese. I also feel like I'm not really qualified to understand these documents - they are generally written for people who have the appropriate qualifications. For example when buying a property in the UK, the soliciter will be the one parses the legal documents. It's crazy to think that normal people are expected to fully understand these, and it doesn…

I feel this is one of the major problems with most TOSs... You generally don't have a lawyer around to explain every TOS you come across, so people ignore them and hope for the best. Hmm - I wonder if there would be a niche for a website that explains specific, common TOSs in easy to understand terms?

We've all been hearing about machine learning algorithms that can parse legalese and pull out the important bits given parameters of interest. So certainly a possibility.

HN make it so!

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#88

Post by vlovich123 »

albertgoeswoof wrote: post #27
gorgoiler wrote: post #6

If a website knows I didn't really read a contract, can they claim I am bound by it? I like to hope that the time-spent-reading is logged somewhere. Should it come up in court, Website.com would be required to disclose their logs which would show that I spent all of 1.35s reading their terms and conditions, most of which was spent scrolling. Another puerile hack of mine is to sign a document with the name "I do not a…

This is why they’re non enforceable in a real court. If I put the rights to your inheritance in a tos no judge is actually going to enforce that, because no one would reasonably sign that away for access to a website. In reality only things which you would reasonably expect to be in a tos or privacy policy could be enforced, given 99% of users don’t read them, or understand them.

That sounds like how you wish the works worked vs how it does. Are you aware of a single court case where a judge dismissed it on those grounds?

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#89

Post by mech422 »

CodeGlitch wrote: post #87
mech422 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel this is one of the major problems with most TOSs... You generally don't have a lawyer around to explain every TOS you come across, so people ignore them and hope for the best. Hmm - I wonder if there would be a niche for a website that explains specific, common TOSs in easy to understand terms?

We've all been hearing about machine learning algorithms that can parse legalese and pull out the important bits given parameters of interest. So certainly a possibility. HN make it so!

Does that mean we'll sprout a generation of "Legal SEO" lawyers that try to game the algorithms ? :-P

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#90

Post by herodotus »

Yes, this is a big problem. In fact, in May 2019, I mad a semi-serious post about it (https://notdaily.com/blog/2019/05/05/you-are-a-liar-yes-you/)

My major concern is the normalization of lying: the craziness of "I have read and accept..." makes liars out of all of us.

So I applaud the tosdr effort, but I don't believe it is addressing the real problem.

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