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Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

scientificamerican.com

81–90 of 186 posts

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#81
Argh. This is what I don't like about non-tech, -IT, and -CS articles posted on HN: people go off on tangents with so little (useless) information. I'm sorry to say this article is poor on information.

Let's stick to the facts. Complex carbs (brown rice, whole wheat bread, bagels, whole wheat pasta, beans - the list of delicious, healthy complex carbs is long) in moderation does not hinder your health. In fact, your body needs them because it is stored energy. Other sources of energy are used up quicker, such as protein. That's not to say carbs are better than protein. Your body needs both!

Now, refined SIMPLE carbs (table sugar, fruit juice, "packaged" cereals, chocolate bars, etc.) are not good for you, and only certain types of bodies with certain physical activity should consume them (e.g., if you are a bodybuilder or if you lift weights a few times a week, etc.). It is still absolutely tantamount that you consume unrefined simple carbs such as strawberries, raspberries, oranges, apples, plum, pear, a long etc., and the number one fruit because of its flavanoid content: blueberries!).

Put simply, fruits and complex carbs help you convert what you eat in slow-releasing energy that has less content that is turned into fat (as opposed to refined simple carbs). This steady release of energy is part of "moderation is key". If you have your body working too hard, your heart fluttering/palpitations and overworking it are not healthy, neither is when your body processes everything too slow.

The biggest factor when consuming carbs (both simple and complex) is the glycemic levels in your blood. You can't have this fluctuate so much, especially if you're pre-disposed to it, otherwise you throw it out of kilter and it may cause diabetes.

I'll keep the fat part short. We need fat, too! Let me be less "headliney". We need polyunsaturated fatty acids; in part, to keep our metabolism going. Foods like avocado, fish, flax seed, leafy vegetables, soybeans, walnuts (nuts), and shellfish. Sure, saturated fats may not be the major cause of heart disease, but lessening it while consuming a healthy amount of polyunsaturated fat and complex carbs might. You can read an article on that here (it's better than the OP's article, but still has its flaws): http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/rethinking-satura... (By the way, this article was published over a year ago.)

Having said all that, each body is different. You should tailor your diet to what your body reacts positively to. For example, flax seed is healthy for you, but I know people who get diarrhea from it. Obviously, don't force yourself to eat something your body doesn't like. Listen to your body, because, unfortunately, the science doesn't fully understand all body types.

I'm not a fan of fallacies from defective induction, so I shall refrain from an argumentum ad verecundiam on this, but on a separate note, I will say my friend studied nutrition and she has expressed a keen dislike toward the "Food guide pyramid".

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#82
post #49

People resist the idea because the answer is too simple. "Fats" are better than "Carbs". So lard is better than a banana? Ugh. It's not the broad category of "Fats" vs "Carbs". It's the TYPE of food. Eat good food. Period. Not something made in a factory. Twinkies: out. Soda: out. Standard pizza with refined grains and loads of cheese: out. Eat healthy food: the right meats, fruits, vegetables, whole grains and lots…

I totally agree, the problem is that it's harder for people to eat healthy than simply pick a single thing and demonize it. Plus, telling people to eat healthy doesn't sell a lot of books.

On top of that, phrases like "eat healthy", "eat healthy fats", "eat cleanly", etc are ambiguous, and not helpful. This is because each person's definition of "healthy" and "clean" is different.

We need to be very specific when describing what to eat.

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#83

I think the real answer is because it is more systematically profitable to sell carb products and (food) companies are really really good at selling things to people. It is interesting to see comments on this forum that involve the strategy of reasoning with the public to get them to accept their idea. Next time you see somebody drinking a soda explain to them what fructose does metabolically to their bodies. Your me…

I think, first, one should differentiate between the part of the food industry that is actually the sugar industry - products like Coke and Gatorade and Snickers - and the part that is packaged convenience food that also contains a lot of sugar. (High-fructose corn syrup is just another sugar with 5-10% more fructose.)

The convenience food industry is highly motivated to sell what the public wants to buy. They follow food fads assiduously. When fiber was in, suddenly all products had added fiber. When that fad (which was actually a mildly good thing) passed, the fiber went away. Now that partially hydrogenated vegetable oil is out of fashion, packaged foods remove it and advertise "0% Trans Fat!"

There was a time when carbs were bad and there were plenty of packaged foods that upped the fat and protein and advertised "Low Carb!" When Dr. Atkins died of heart failure and overweight, the steam went out of low-carb. Now low-fat is ascendant, and packaged foods trumpet "Low Fat!"

The problem with this latest fad is fat makes food taste good. When you take it out, recipes taste like crap. Try a spoonful of fat-free cream cheese and tell me what you think. So the packaged food industry has to add something else that makes the low-fat garbage palatable: sugar!

It's evil, but it's not a conspiracy. People buy packaged foods because they're convenient and taste ok. They do this in preference to cooking, which may or may not taste better, because they're lazy or too busy. That's human nature. The problem is the low-fat food fad.

If the culture turned a corner and demanded low-sugar food, the food industry would fall all over itself taking sugar and corn syrup out and adding back in fat and protein to make the stuff taste better. They did it in the low-carb era and they'd do it again in a heartbeat.

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#84
post #3

So many of these articles do not distinguish between simple and complex carbs and lump them all together. There is a difference between 20g of carbs from a piece of fruit vs 20g carbs from, say, pasta.

I'm not sure the difference is that big. Amylase in your saliva starts breaking down starches to glucose even before you swallow. Non-digestible carbs (fiber), protein and fat can slow down the process, however.

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#85
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough, but, like the article points out, personal experience, or case studies, doesn't count as scientific proof here. My own experience is that I can eat as much butter (real butter), bacon, olive oil, and other fats as I want and my weight won't change. But as soon as I start to eat bread and potatoes, I can easily gain 10 pounds. This is a very complex issue. For every single person there are many factors in…

Yes, of course. You are following the Atkins diet, basically all fat and protein, very limited carbs. This is an effective way to maintain or lose weight and it's been shown to have positive cardiovascular effects. On the other hand, the best studied and most effective diet for weight loss and cardiovascular health is the Ornish diet, which is almost the exact opposite: no meat, no fat, lots of vegetables, rice and n…

Hmmm. More complex carbs are pretty much chains of glucose. The sugars you are talking about are glucose and fructose, about 50/50. If your explanation is the correct one, does that mean the problem is really fructose?

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#86
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough, but, like the article points out, personal experience, or case studies, doesn't count as scientific proof here. My own experience is that I can eat as much butter (real butter), bacon, olive oil, and other fats as I want and my weight won't change. But as soon as I start to eat bread and potatoes, I can easily gain 10 pounds. This is a very complex issue. For every single person there are many factors in…

Yes, of course. You are following the Atkins diet, basically all fat and protein, very limited carbs. This is an effective way to maintain or lose weight and it's been shown to have positive cardiovascular effects. On the other hand, the best studied and most effective diet for weight loss and cardiovascular health is the Ornish diet, which is almost the exact opposite: no meat, no fat, lots of vegetables, rice and n…

What I do is more like "paleo" than Atkins, but they are similar.

Apparently both diets avoid grains and sugar.

Check out the comment about by jpb that refers to Robert Lustig's talk. It is very interesting. It refers to your point that low-fat high-carb diets could also be healthy, but not all carbs are recommended.

Apparently eating fat together with carbs in conducive to fat accumulation, and sugar by itself has the same result because half of it, the fructose, is metabolized into triglycerides.

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#87

I think the real answer is because it is more systematically profitable to sell carb products and (food) companies are really really good at selling things to people. It is interesting to see comments on this forum that involve the strategy of reasoning with the public to get them to accept their idea. Next time you see somebody drinking a soda explain to them what fructose does metabolically to their bodies. Your me…

"...it is more systematically profitable to sell carb products and (food) companies are really really good at selling things to people." Apart from the cheap, unhealthy ingredients and slick marketing, modern processed food is also engineered to be appealing; and for the want of a better word, addictive. Prehistoric man would have to do a lot of hunting and gathering before he would consume the equivalent amount of c…

While all of that is true I think the real story is one of economics.

It is VERY easy for me to eat as much swine as I feel like nowadays. If we assume that saturated fat/protein isn't bad for you then the fact that I can, in modern times, acquire the pig with less effort than my ancestors doesn't appear to harm me very much. It is tasty pretty much right out of the farm. I imagine it is difficult to make the margins on livestock very high.

Carbs have brands. They have business moats. They have high margins and great psychological keys that make selling them a great business (helps to be addictive). So they push and we buy.

Anyways my thought was that the obesity epidemic has less to do with how we are more sedentary than before but rather the peddlers of PROFITABLE products just got better at their jobs over time.

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#88
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Lustig responds to those criticisms here: http://www.kqed.org/a/forum/R201104211000 Key takeaway is that Lustig doesn't make any claim that you can't get fat by eating too many calories, regardless of the source. Lustig's research is on the metabolic pathways for fructose and glucose, and they are substantially different.

I'll listen when I have some time later. Does he also address the dose dependent problem in his cited studies? Of course if I'm drinking 6-7 sodas a day that's generally going to be a problem, but it doesn't mean sugar is evil. Too much water can kill me also, but I don't see people saying water is evil.

Like I said, he talks about metabolic pathways, which are independent of dose, though not your body's current state of glycogen deficiency.

He also speaks to the effect of insulin resistance, and how the very rapid metabolism of fructose in the liver (7x faster than glucose) can lead to insulin resistance. Insulin spikes redirect calories eaten directly to fat, without them ever being metabolized into energy. As a result you gain fat and have less energy available, leaving you both fatter and hungrier.

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#89
There are many reasons why people resist the idea that carbs are worse that fat. For one thing, no one has proved that "carbs are worse than fat." It's a silly, over-simplified assertion.

Also, fats are the most calorie-dense macro-nutrient. If your calorie intake is greater than your calorie expenditure you will gain weight. You could easily supplement your diet with a 300 calorie bar of chocolate twice a day and your daily calorie intake skyrockets from 2,000 to 2,600. Over time this will lead to obesity if your activity level doesn't rise or if muscles don't grow.

Each tablespoon of oil adds 100+ calories a the dish.

2 slices of bread: 160 calories, 60g of peanut butter: 350 calories.

Carbs are good. You need carbs. Without carbs, your body overuses ketogenesis for energy, releasing toxic byproducts into the blood that cause kidney and liver damage.

Too many carbs at once leads to unstable blood sugar and insulin levels. The consequences of this are poorly understood, especially in healthy, active people. But intuitively, daily large spikes in blood sugar and insulin response are probably not a good thing. The good news is that eating high GI carbs with fiber, protein, fats, and sugars mitigates the spikes.

While not as calorie-dense as fatty foods, lots of high carb foods are low fiber, low protein, and low moisture with minimal micronutrients and still have very high calorie/weight ratios.

(Calories-in > Calories-out) in a sedentary lifestyle leads to increased body fat and weight gain which leads to cellular stress inflammation causing insulin resistance, which leads to more weight gain and more severe metabolic problems.

The whole carb vs. fat debate is a waste of time.

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#90
post #42

I guess I haven't been paying attention but I thought the Atkins diet from a few years ago had been discounted as an unhealthy fad diet. But now I'm reading that it has been scientifically proven to be the healthiest diet. Is that right? Are carb-filled fruits and vegetables supposed to be less healthy than for example fried bacon?

Wrong. The problem is that people think low-carb equals bacon grease and no vegetables. It really just means little to no bread, grains, rice or potatoes. A low carb diet is predominantly fruits and vegetables, but for some reason, people really like to focus on the meat and fat aspect.

Speak for yourself. :)

I've been on a high-fat, moderate protein diet for almost a year now. I eat occasional small servings of vegetables because it's easier than arguing with my wife, but my diet is probably 95-98% meat/eggs/(dairy). "Low-carb" means 'low carb'. There are lots of ways of doing it, and frankly, we have no idea which way is right for most people (let alone for outliers).

Meta point on this whole discussion (and I don't mean to single you out). There are a lot of posts of the sort "come on people, this is easy"+(some simple dietary advice). But it isn't easy, and nobody really has a clue right now. The evidence is contradictory and poor. What we need is more individuals engaged in personal experimentation, and more methodologically sound research. It's a hard, complex problem.

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