School or Prison • Hacker News Board

Re: School or Prison

#81

Post by tikhonj » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 9:34 PM UTC

paulpauper wrote: post #11

cyberbanjo wrote: post #4

Is it surprising that the cellular prison, with its regular chronologies, forced labour, its authorities of surveillance and registration, its experts in normality, who continue and multiply the functions of the judge, should have become the modern instrument of penality? Is it surprising that prisons resemble factories, schools, barracks, hospitals, which all resemble prisons? Michel Foucault

this is because tall, rectangular buildings maximize volume to surface area, whether a hospital school or prison. It is not a form of social control or domination. it is more efficient this way. A one-story hospital would be prohibitively expensive to build in an urban area, and it is not like healthcare is not already too expensive.

High-end office builds are also efficient rectangular prisms far more often than not, yet they don't feel like hospitals, schools or prisons.

I've spent extensive time in all of these except prisons, and I can tell you the difference is stark. What explains that? Is it all just down to expensive trim and interior decor? I'm sure that plays a part, but that was never my main impression. Instead, it comes down to the layout and light and feel: it's clear when a building, however regular and rectangular, is designed to support and empower the occupants and when it's designed to control and direct.

Re: School or Prison

#82

Post by yrimaxi » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 9:36 PM UTC

alisonatwork wrote: post #68

lukifer wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Foucault is explicitly referring to norms of behavior, not the shapes of buildings: - regular chronologies - forced labour - authorities of surveillance and registration

Where is the forced labor in schools, barracks, hospitals and factories? I understand there are some instances where this might be the case, but generally people go to those places because they want to, or because it offers them a favorable outcome that they're willing to temporarily trade some autonomy for. You can deconstruct the whole of society and make an argument that all labor exchanged for capital is oppressi…

d/

Re: School or Prison

#83

Post by CuriousCosmic » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 9:37 PM UTC

thotsBgone wrote: post #74

EGreg wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI and competition between schools can fix all that. But naked capitalism tells women to "lean in and earn $1 for every 70 cents" instead of telling men to "lean out and earn 70c for every $1" ...and spend more time with your children, family, contributing to open source software, learning science, an instrument, hobbies, sports and exercise and doing other things not valued by the market. UBI is far superior to bot…

We teach children how to do paperwork starting at age 5. How necessary is that?

I'd argue that's a pretty essential skill in the modern world. Reading and writing are arguably the two of the most important skills we can learn since from them you can eventually do anything else.

Paperwork specifically is also pretty important. Sure you could argue that they could postpone teaching that until later but teaching how to fill out paperwork is basically just teaching how to do homework which will be essential for teaching mathematics at any reasonable scale.

Of course now things are digital but it's still the same skills but in a different shade.

Re: School or Prison

#84

Post by kiba » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 9:37 PM UTC

jclulow wrote: post #19

philwelch wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s an architectural style called “brutalism”, which has the predominant aesthetic of “a boot stamping on a human face forever”.

I mean, not really? I think you're projecting the behaviour of the USSR (or whatever) onto the architectural style. From an aesthetic perspective, brutalism can be surprisingly pleasing -- especially if you throw in some trees: https://twitter.com/Karl_poyzer/status/1246511600300896257

The concrete are still rather ugly to me.

Re: School or Prison

#85

Post by throwaway201103 » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 9:41 PM UTC

jstummbillig wrote: post #64

torben-friis wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I get what's the problem with schools and prisons looking the same. Prisons should look like the rest of the world after all, they're supposed to be places where you learn to function in society.

Fair enough. If our prisons end up looking open, warm and inviting, then that would be a very positive outcome indeed. That's not my takeaway, after looking at these photos though.

Prisons have to be resistant to the attempts of their occupants to escape, or to cause damage or destruction. This doesn't really seem compatible with warm and inviting.

Re: School or Prison

#86

Post by powersnail » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 9:42 PM UTC

ARandomerDude wrote: post #66

Public school is a prison where both parents can abandon their children to be raised by strangers while the parents chase what they really love: money. We make ourselves feel better by teaching them a few worthwhile things during their minimum 13 years in lockdown, coupled with a massive public jobs program, but most of it is a waste of precious family time where parents should be teaching and loving their own childr…

> what they really love: money

Money is just a currency. What they really love (and need), is all the goods and services that can be purchased by money, which include the things that keep their children and themselves alive.

Re: School or Prison

#87

Post by em-bee » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 9:43 PM UTC

alisonatwork wrote: post #68

lukifer wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Foucault is explicitly referring to norms of behavior, not the shapes of buildings: - regular chronologies - forced labour - authorities of surveillance and registration

Where is the forced labor in schools, barracks, hospitals and factories? I understand there are some instances where this might be the case, but generally people go to those places because they want to, or because it offers them a favorable outcome that they're willing to temporarily trade some autonomy for. You can deconstruct the whole of society and make an argument that all labor exchanged for capital is oppressi…

when i am sick at work, then i can take a few days off. (with or without pay). whatever work needs to get done, will be done by someone else, and i join back in without penalty when i am ready

when my kids miss school, they have to catch up the work they missed. if they already struggle then they can't afford to get sick because they will fall to far behind and may not be able to catch up.

so yes, school is forced labor and it's a prison

Re: School or Prison

#88

Post by smhost » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

lldbg wrote: post #73

cyberbanjo wrote: post #4

Is it surprising that the cellular prison, with its regular chronologies, forced labour, its authorities of surveillance and registration, its experts in normality, who continue and multiply the functions of the judge, should have become the modern instrument of penality? Is it surprising that prisons resemble factories, schools, barracks, hospitals, which all resemble prisons? Michel Foucault

Foucault advocated for pedophilia, and that knowledge has tainted him for me. Can he still be a moral authority?

skepticism about age of consent laws is a time-honored libertarian tradition. it's not even strictly foucauldian. and as a nietzschean, foucault didn't believe in moral authority.

Re: School or Prison

#89

Post by scandox » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

lldbg wrote: post #73

cyberbanjo wrote: post #4

Is it surprising that the cellular prison, with its regular chronologies, forced labour, its authorities of surveillance and registration, its experts in normality, who continue and multiply the functions of the judge, should have become the modern instrument of penality? Is it surprising that prisons resemble factories, schools, barracks, hospitals, which all resemble prisons? Michel Foucault

Foucault advocated for pedophilia, and that knowledge has tainted him for me. Can he still be a moral authority?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_petition_against_age_...

More or less the entire French Intellectual establishment argued at that time for "the decriminalization of all consensual relations between adults and minors below the age of fifteen".

While I agree that seems extremely stupid, it is based on a morally tenable argument that people under that age could give consent. That may be incorrect but if accepted as a premise would justify their position.

So if Foucault believed this and his moral arguments derived from that, it would seem unwise to dismiss all his moral authority just because you believe he was wrong on this point.

I personally think he is totally wrong and that even people at the age of eighteen struggle to know their own minds clearly with regard to consent. However I do not as a result think Foucault is impossible to take a moral lead from.

Re: School or Prison

#90

Post by hndudette2 » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

jclulow wrote: post #19

philwelch wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s an architectural style called “brutalism”, which has the predominant aesthetic of “a boot stamping on a human face forever”.

I mean, not really? I think you're projecting the behaviour of the USSR (or whatever) onto the architectural style. From an aesthetic perspective, brutalism can be surprisingly pleasing -- especially if you throw in some trees: https://twitter.com/Karl_poyzer/status/1246511600300896257

It's the distinctness and uniqueness of those examples, as well as that they're surrounded by trees/nature, that make them so beautiful. Brutalism as intentional art, not as an unintended byproduct of cost-saving or simply not caring.

The depressing nature of a lot of brutalist architecture (especially that created by governments) is the uniformity, homogeneity and the mass-produced faux-utilitarian feeling it evokes, as if the inhabitants are all interchangeable peons with no individual spirit. It's a reminder of the depressing local conditions that lead to that architecture coming into being in the first place.

https://www.theguardian.com/housing-network/2016/jan/13/brut...