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Why Startups Could Use .NET, But Don’t

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Re: Why Startups Could Use .NET, But Don’t

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not accurate, for what it's worth. I'm working on a startup with .NET, and while I do use some parts of the MS Ecosystem (Visual Studio, C#, ASP.NET MVC, SQL Server, IIS) I use plenty of tools that aren't from Microsoft (NUnit, JQuery, Github, ReSharper, TeamCity, DotTrace, DotCover, Selenium). Any good technologist mixes and matches the things that work best for their solution, right?

Yes, there's definitely a split. Core infrastructure like the CLR, OS, and IDE greatly benefit coming from MS (although none are requirements, as Mono demonstrates). But anyone who does serious .NET dev work knows that tons of third-party tools are used. One big difference I notice in .NET shops is that they seem a lot more willing to pay for the best solution. Whereas for FOSS shops they seem more likely to get an a…

     although none are requirements, 
     as Mono demonstrates
Not to bash on Mono, as Miguel and the Mono team did a fantastic job, but Mono has been more focused on client apps (like for embedding in games).

Another reason for why hosting ASP.NET projects on Linux is awful is because ASP.NET was built for Windows. Things like async operations are built for the Windows kernel, having architecture decisions that have a negative impact on Linux. Last time I tried it, it also leaked memory, heavily.

Nobody sane uses it, unless they made a bad decision to build on ASP.NET at the beginning and it is cheaper to just try using Mono.

    tons of third-party tools are used
But only tools that are replaceable, used mostly in development mode.

How many .NET shops are using MySQL or PostgreSQL? How many of them are using NGinx or Varnish? How many are using CouchDB or MongoDB?

    .NET shops ... seem a lot more willing 
    to pay for the best solution
This is wrong on so many levels I can't even begin to comment on it.

First of all, .NET shops are digging themselves in a hole by using .NET in the first place.

Of course the best solution is SQL Server, because stuff like LINQ doesn't work reliably for PostgreSQL and because the performance of the PostgreSQL client is awful and because the reliable way of designing a database is through Visual Studio, which again, doesn't work so well for PostgreSQL. You would be mad to choose PostgreSQL if working with .NET

That's the whole point - Microsoft doesn't care to have interoperability with third-parties. Microsoft wants you to buy Window Server licenses that are limited in the number of CPUs you can use and it wants you to use nothing less than SQL Server, even though for the same money you can buy multiple kick-ass servers and use PostgreSQL for free.

This isn't about cheapness, it's about the value provided (i.e. being frugal). Running a business should be done frugally, since you're only in business as long as the money supply doesn't run out. Paying more money than you should is irresponsible.

Re: Why Startups Could Use .NET, But Don’t

#82
post #10

Our startup is based on .Net and hosted on Azure. I don't think I realized just how uncommon this was until we were invited to Microsoft in Redmond and saw the excitement from the developers when they learned that we were a startup. We love the framework. But its definitely not the only stack we use. I also agree that there are bad .Net developers that spoil it for the rest of us. In my opinion, most of the issues se…

I agree. Our company builds products for many startups on top of ASP.NET MVC and it can be EXTREMELY difficult wading through the terrible webforms developers to find the developers with a strong core understanding of how the web works. For us we actually focus much of our attention on developers from outside the .NET world, as we've found they are able to wrap their heads around low level javascript much faster, and…

The developer issue is the thorniest issue with choosing the .NET ecosystem. It's easier to find a .NET developer than a Ruby/Python/what have you, but it's harder to find a good .NET developer.

What I like to do is advertise for Python and .NET skills. That weeds a lot of bad ones out.

Re: Why Startups Could Use .NET, But Don’t

#83
post #16
post #2

The real answer is just as much about our industry’s culture as it is about technology. No, it's entirely about our industry's culture. Which is a shame. It's a fantastic framework that should and could supplant the JVM. It never will though, thanks to Microsoft's boneheaded choices and the blog posts like 'Why I don't hire .Net developers'.

> It's a fantastic framework that should and could supplant the JVM. What makes you feel that .NET is so superior to the JVM? The JVM itself seems like a solid, performant VM platform, and there is a broad selection of languages in Scala, Groovy, Clojure, JRuby, Jython and friends. Disclaimer: I'm platform agnostic and don't currently develop on the JVM or the .NET CLR, so I have no horse in this race. I'm genuinely…

Here's a few things:

1. JVM cannot do unsafe code. In the CLR, you can create unverifiable IL and do pointer manipulation, etc. Raw memory can be free accessed however you like. That's a handy interop and performance feature.

2. JVM doesn't support structs. Again, performance difference. (Although, sometimes the CLR's JIT hasn't emitted the best code for structs.)

3. The CLR has generics. In Java, generics are implemented via erasure. This has an impact on performance and reflection.

Re: Why Startups Could Use .NET, But Don’t

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A solution that costs money is not necessarily the "best" solution simply because it cost money. cough perforce cough

A solution that costs money is not necessarily the "best" solution simply because it cost money. I didn't say it was. I said they're WILLING to pay for the best solution. Not that they go and look for paid products only.

An example of this is the fact that something like ReSharper both exists and is awesome.

Re: Why Startups Could Use .NET, But Don’t

#85
post #23

-Not OSS (note I didn't include the F) -Cross-browser pains -Vendor lockin (getting better with mono, but not officially supported by MS) -Non-(f)OSS tools or less (F)OSS tools -Non-OSS risk (can't patch if needed) -No support for WebGL/other html5 tech -Useless pushing of Silverlight while industry shifts to HTML5

I think your opinions are based on out of date info.

There are no real "cross-browser pains" when developing ASP.NET. I think you'd really have to go out of your way today to develop something that "works better" in IE than other browsers.

MS contributes to and supports Jquery and includes it by default in new projects.

Silverlight isn't really being pushed at all except on WP7. It was more of a flash competitor anyway and never was meant to compete with HTML5.

There are quite a number of FOSS tools for .NET development, and incredible amount of 3rd party support that's not FOSS.

Granted, most of their stuff isn't being released as OSS. I believe some of their newer tech is releasing source through codeplex.

Overall, most of the complaints I've seen in this thread about Microsoft are better directed at the Microsoft of the 90's and early 2000's than the Microsoft of today.

Re: Why Startups Could Use .NET, But Don’t

#86
The writer of this awful article obviously has not done much web development programming, because if he had, he'd know that microsoft is atrocious in every respect.

Microsoft has its own standards, its own way of doing things. Microsoft does not "play nice". When I code a site that needs to be compatable with all browsers, I need seperate code for ie6, ie7, and ie8. They all interpret code and standards a bit differently, leading to page inconsistancies.

And now, this jerk says we are supposed to embrace microsoft and program in .net? Is this guy out of his fucking mind? Simply program anything thats actually going to be useful and require cross compatability, and you will quickly see why microsoft is looked down upon by ACTUAL developers, hated, and is known across the lands as a large piece of garbage.

For how little microsoft has done for the open source community, for how long it takes for microsoft to issue simple updates, for how many years certain browser bugs were hanging around; I would never, ever, ever, support that company.

The mere thought of a startup company using .net is laughable. Anytime I hear any company using .net, all I can think of is some high up executive got schwindled, and it is up to the low level developers to turn a massive pile of shit, into something useful.

Re: Why Startups Could Use .NET, But Don’t

#87
post #29

Closed source. If it breaks (really breaks) I (or anyone without a Microsoft badge) can't fix it. And if they do fix it, it will take a while for the patch to get to me. Pretty simple if you ask me.

Well, the number of engineers that can actually patch something, in say, the JVM, are rather limited. So I'm not sure open source is nearly as big a deal as it's made out to be, as far as patching goes.

You do have a point on release cycles, but that's not inherently about being closed source.

Re: Why Startups Could Use .NET, But Don’t

#88
post #2

The real answer is just as much about our industry’s culture as it is about technology. No, it's entirely about our industry's culture. Which is a shame. It's a fantastic framework that should and could supplant the JVM. It never will though, thanks to Microsoft's boneheaded choices and the blog posts like 'Why I don't hire .Net developers'.

The problem is Microsoft. .Net would be a perfect thing if it wasn't fully owned my MS, in which case it probably won't be far as perfect. However, you have to use MS OS, MS development tools, MS deployment - and it's pretty painful especially because you can't use shiny macbooks any longer :) If you try to replace any element of that chain, you're on your own entirely. On other hand, MS ecosystem is smaller than non…

For example, what does it have for non-relational storages?

http://ravendb.net/

Re: Why Startups Could Use .NET, But Don’t

#90
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can't use shiny macbooks any longer : Windows 7 supposedly installs and runs on MBPs just fine with bootcamp. You can even use a USB stick to install.

Macbook isn't just the hardware, it's a school of thought ^^ Seriously, I don't want Windows 7. Years of being Linux user taught me one thing: I really hate being the second class citisen. And the reliable way of not being X class citisen is not letting any microsoft[-only] technologies in the door. I perfectly like it when we have people with 3 different OSes in the room, even if I can't use the shiniest and fitties…

Eh, I was just pointing it out. Sometimes you need windows even if you prefer non-windows tech (I personally prefer the Mac ecosystem). For instance, my local iOS dev group has be atwitter about installing windows to do windows 7 phone development.
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