Live data from Hacker News

“I took FSFE to court. This is my story”

write.as

81–84 of 84 posts

Re: “I took FSFE to court. This is my story”

#81
post #77

For the record, the FSFE published a response here: https://fsfe.org/about/statement-20201220.html > [...] we felt it necessary to state unequivocally that this post does not reflect the reality of the facts and contradicts the verdict by the Berlin Labour Court. > The court judgement of 19 November 2020 (reference number 42 Ca 5723/20) did not acknowledge any factual basis to the assertions. Furthermore the judges c…

It seems to me that the court in question is the Arbeitsgericht Berlin. I couldn't find the referenced code[1], and I then went through the list of documents of Nov 2020 in chronological order, and couldn't find it either. I don't know where to take this next--write to or call the court to ask for details?

[1] https://www.berlin.de/gerichte/arbeitsgericht/suche.php?q=42...

Re: “I took FSFE to court. This is my story”

#82
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but you are ignoring until recently it was commonly accepted that women are weaker, Last time I checked, women's weightlifting or running records were nowhere near those of men. So it is an objective law of nature that women are indeed physically weaker. (To compensate for that, they have unique abilities that men totally lack.) > therefore the assumption must be that women are paid less because of of this perceive…

we are not talking about physical labor here, but work that requires the use of your brain. observable physical weakness has no bearing on any other capacities, but what i said above is specifically about those other capacities. i expect to see evidence that women are less capable programmers, project managers, etc. the only thing that a salary measures objectively, is your negotiation skills. i absolutely disagree t…

> we are not talking about physical labor here, but work that requires the use of your brain.

English is not my first language and I'm not really familiar with the use of word 'weak' to describe mental capacity. Personally, I perceive women to be just as capable as men when it comes to intellectual work.

I don't agree with you that salary measures only negotiation skills. If you are a god-tier haggler, but zero in programming, you wouldn't have big salary for long. Your compensation is based mostly on the value you provide, which is only somewhat influenced by your negotiation skills.

You yourself say that it is very hard to objectively measure the performance of an intellectual worker. I think that is not just very hard, but simply impossible. Consequently, we can't pay people equally for equal performance because we can't even measure that performance to begin with.

In contrast, direct negotiations system is fair, and works both ways. If you think you are underpaid, go on a job market and find a better paying job. If you can't, your perceived market value is lower than you think. If you can, and leave for greener pastures, your current employer will lose a skilled worker, because he underpaid you.

Rational employer will seek to maximize the value extracted from employees, and hire the cheapest candidate with sufficient skills. Rational worker will seek the best paying job. Eventually the job market reaches an equilibrium, and everyone is paid what he or she is currently worth in current economy.

So if some woman thinks that she's paid less than her male colleague, she can just test herself against the marker. If she can't find an equally or better paid job, maybe she's overvaluing herself. And if she can, well, she can simply change job for a better paying one!

(And we don't need to make some bizarre attempts to create a performance measurement system, which inevitably will be flawed and inaccurate)

Re: “I took FSFE to court. This is my story”

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's reductionist to the point of meaningless. There's a spectrum of communications from 'professional and respectful' to 'shaming, sexual abuse and discrimination'. It's a lame argument to throw up your hands and pretend there's no way out. Often used by folks seeking to explain away their terrible behavior.

For me, the price of interaction is not worth the risk. I've never seen a time at work where speaking about literally anything has gained me something. And the risk of saying something someone else doesn't like is too big and too impactful on my career.

Again, its pretty sad if one can't figure out how to talk to another person without shaming them, denigrating their sex or making inappropriate advances. How about, talking professionally about the job?

Re: “I took FSFE to court. This is my story”

#84

Without ever having heard of this case, I'd like to add two, maybe unrelated, datapoints: * I know Matthias Kirschner personally (though not very good). This story does not fit the character I met. * There is a campaign of disinformation, character assassination and harrassment going on against the Debian project, the FSFE, and their members (maybe other projects as well). This has been going on for multiple years no…

Yet the courts validated her assertions. I take that as entirely trumping this attempt to deny or excuse the inexcusable.

According to her, the courts validated her assertions. According to the FSF, they did not. https://fsfe.org/about/statement-20201220.html

Unless someone pulls the court documents and gets them translated, we are very much operating in a word-against-word situation

Post reply on HN