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Joining Apple 40 years ago

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Re: Joining Apple 40 years ago

#81
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Supply & demand economics won't deliver the result you want even if your wish for everyone over 60 to drop dead is fulfilled. Depends. If building housing were legal it would. Tokyo’s population has increased 50% over the last twenty years and property prices have been flat. If supply is allowed to rise to reach demand property prices don’t go up on a never ending spiral.

> Tokyo’s population has increased 50% over the last twenty years and property prices have been flat That's because most live in glorified living room space, and many in "comfortable elevator" size houses...

Talking about the size of living space in a discussion of free marking housing costs is irrelevant. The only fact that matters is cost per unit area, the free market will decide how much area people are willing to pay for (assuming, of course, that there is a free market that is able to construct smaller or larger living spaces. Japan has one of these, whereas the United States typically does not thanks to most municipalities' zoning law)

In Tokyo, land is extraordinarily expensive but living space is only ordinarily expensive (and not nearly as expensive as many US cities). As a consequence, a quick google search[0] suggests that a new single family home in Tokyo's 23 wards will cost you $600,000 with about 1051 square feet of living space, or roughly $600 per square foot, and in the distant suburbs (with long train commutes, an hour minimum but maybe 90 minutes or more to shinjuku. would be fine for a remote worker though) you can get a house for around $400,000 although this article regrettably does not mention if these houses are the same size on average or not (so $400 per square foot or less, not quite sure).

In terms of the urban form of the streetscape, expensive land coupled with the fact that you can legally subdivide your land, means that houses are very crammed together with almost no space in between in major cities, and especially in Tokyo. That said it's a free market - there are larger lots you can buy, and if you really want a big property I'm sure you could buy neighboring lots and combine them somehow (demolition of existing properties is normal anyways - if you really want a buffer from your neighbors, build a house that's smaller than your lot size!). In contrast, most municipalities in the US mandate a certain space between houses and/or require getting special zoning board approval to subdivide your lot, which means that there's essentially a "minimum" lot size, which turns into a minimum house cost of (minimum lot size * land price).

Additionally there will always be concerns about standard of living. IMO Japanese homes are, in some ways better, but in many ways worse, standard of living than American homes. For example, my impression is that the HVAC situation is typically much worse than the standard american home (although where I live in boston the "AC" is usually nonexistant since most homes are 100+ years old, but atleast the heating is good). On the other hand, Japanese bathrooms are a godsend, if you haven't experienced it you don't know. The biggest concern to me is the sound insulation, which can be poor in many cheap wood-framed Japanese homes (true in many cheap new construction American homes too, as well as some older American constructions. It always depends I suppose! But atleast in sprawling american suburbs you don't hear your neighbor as often through those walls because houses are spread out enough.)

Finally, as a note, while all the above is talking about Tokyo and it's suburbs, there are other big booming cities in Japan (Osaka is popular) which are often 30% or more cheaper but with many of the same big-city amenities like transit, walkability, restaurants and culture, and so on. In terms of price, Tokyo really is like the NYC of Japan, but it's actually affordable for the average family, albeit with either a small home or a long commute.

TL;DR : in Tokyo, land is really expensive, living space is moderately expensive, the free market has converged to fairly small living spaces relative to the US. In the rest of Japan (and distant suburbs to Tokyo), land is moderately expensive and living space is fairly cheap.

[0] https://resources.realestate.co.jp/buy/how-much-does-it-cost...

Addendum: to someone interested in suburban/rural housing in Japan, there's a youtube channel TokyoLlama with a series on his purchasing one of those abandoned houses in a distant tokyo suburb, about 50 minutes out of the city by train. It's an old, beautiful, artisan wood house. At some point in the series he covers all the costs associated with buying the house, as well as various costs and effort to renovate it and make it livable.[1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/c/TokyoLlama/videos

Re: Joining Apple 40 years ago

#82

Can you imagine moving to the Bay Area in the 80s? To grow up when land was still cheap, before college competition was cutthroat and unaffordable, when relatively simple competence could get you a solid job and VC/PE firms weren't plundering and incentivizing the latest 30-second attention-span app to reach $1B? It would be me living in Los Altos now, instead of the old rich people who I curse for refusing to die or…

California in the early 80s wasn’t fun. We left SF in ‘83. Interest rates around 15%. Minimum wage around $2.50/hr. Gas rationing. you could only buy gas on certain days based on your license plate. There was an apartment above a garage in SF that sold for $200,000 that was fixup and the garage wasn’t part of the deal. My parents moved us to they east coast where they did finally purchase their own home.

Gas rationing in the 80s? I think you're off a decade. I lived in SoCal in the 80s and there was no rationing. During the Oil embargo in 73 there was the odd/even rationing, but that didn't continue into the 80s.

Re: Joining Apple 40 years ago

#83

I don’t know if Chris Espinosa still works for Apple, but I think he might have been around a couple of years before Gassé. He started as a teenager. I’ve been writing Apple software since 1986. Lots of changes, since then. I remember it as being a fairly “scruffy” little company; especially if you went to MacHack. I worked for GE, at the time, and the corporate culture differences were quite stark. GE was a “shirt a…

I joined a Mac software startup in 1986. The two founders told me about going to the first Mac developers conference, they claimed it was them, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates and a dozen or so other people from other companies.

Re: Joining Apple 40 years ago

#84
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Supply & demand economics won't deliver the result you want even if your wish for everyone over 60 to drop dead is fulfilled. Depends. If building housing were legal it would. Tokyo’s population has increased 50% over the last twenty years and property prices have been flat. If supply is allowed to rise to reach demand property prices don’t go up on a never ending spiral.

> Tokyo’s population has increased 50% over the last twenty years and property prices have been flat That's because most live in glorified living room space, and many in "comfortable elevator" size houses...

It's nice that those are legal, yes, but the price per square foot is a good deal cheaper than SF too.

Re: Joining Apple 40 years ago

#85

Can you imagine moving to the Bay Area in the 80s? To grow up when land was still cheap, before college competition was cutthroat and unaffordable, when relatively simple competence could get you a solid job and VC/PE firms weren't plundering and incentivizing the latest 30-second attention-span app to reach $1B? It would be me living in Los Altos now, instead of the old rich people who I curse for refusing to die or…

> when land was still cheap

Twenty years from now, you will be able to tell the same story about wherever high-earning, highly educated young people settle in the meantime. All you have to do is predict and buy in.

Re: Joining Apple 40 years ago

#86
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there's always an untapped place somewhere. in the 80s people were saying this about someplace else probably.

I'm curious about the untapped potential of other parts of California. Now that the pandemic has made remote work a necessity, I'm wondering if regions of California outside Silicon Valley will benefit from remote tech workers having more options in terms of residences. For example, Sacramento is a very popular destination for ex-Bay Area residents, and it appears to be a good location for people working remotely for…

There are so many nice little towns in northern California. Any of them would be a fine place to live.

Re: Joining Apple 40 years ago

#87

Can you imagine moving to the Bay Area in the 80s? To grow up when land was still cheap, before college competition was cutthroat and unaffordable, when relatively simple competence could get you a solid job and VC/PE firms weren't plundering and incentivizing the latest 30-second attention-span app to reach $1B? It would be me living in Los Altos now, instead of the old rich people who I curse for refusing to die or…

My parents purchased a house in Milpitas in the 80s. Inexpensive, yes, and they told me that Palo Alto was still considered expensive and out of reach for them at the time.

My father worked at HP for 25 years. Solid middle class lifestyle, no complaints.

Re: Joining Apple 40 years ago

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is hogwash, and a lie mostly propagated by blue check journo twitter. Remember, twitter is not representative of anything even close to consensus political opinion. It's mostly an echo chamber for elites patting themselves on the back for their "correct" opinions https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/04/twitt...

GP said nothing about Twitter.

Excellent observation. Correct you are GP said nothing of twitter. I did.

If you start with the beginning of my comment "this is a lie" and follow along to the end of the sentence, I begin to extrapolate where I believe to be the primary source of this lie, twitter, and make an indirect reference to the perpetuators of the lie, the media.

Re: Joining Apple 40 years ago

#89
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, if building were entirely unregulated, I'm not sure how long it would remain a desirable place to live.

Building is very much regulated in Tokyo and throughout Japan. Just pointing out that unaffordable housing is a policy choice, not a law of nature.

It really isn’t. There is a hierarchy of desirability which will always create price competition.

Nobody would be complaining about prop 13 or California housing prices if they didn’t desire to live in California more than somewhere else.

Re: Joining Apple 40 years ago

#90

I don’t know if Chris Espinosa still works for Apple, but I think he might have been around a couple of years before Gassé. He started as a teenager. I’ve been writing Apple software since 1986. Lots of changes, since then. I remember it as being a fairly “scruffy” little company; especially if you went to MacHack. I worked for GE, at the time, and the corporate culture differences were quite stark. GE was a “shirt a…

I joined a Mac software startup in 1986. The two founders told me about going to the first Mac developers conference, they claimed it was them, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates and a dozen or so other people from other companies.

MacHack was like that, into the early nineties.

You had close, personal contact with top Apple engineers, for three days. They were quite unpolished. Very different from Apple's presentation, these days.

Quite small; maybe only a couple hundred folks.

Lot of fun.

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