How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant • Hacker News Board

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#81

Post by manquer » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 10:14 AM UTC

ornornor wrote: post #78

corty wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sue them for real, or at least have a lawyer write a letter.

This becomes very time consuming, very fast. Even if the insurance pays the lawyers fees, I still have to setup an apointment, explain the situation again, give the documents, etc. It's always "small" amounts like 50-500$, i.e. amounts that it sucks throwing out the window but that aren't big enough to justify sinking even more time in chasing. I also don't believe this can be the only way. Most people don't have leg…

For smaller amounts there is usually an small claims court or ombudsman kind of framework in most jurisdictions , they rarely require lawyers, many times the company either fails to show up and you can get a default judgment , or they will settle out of court as the cost of the process is greater than the amount you are asking for.

This still requires some amount of time from you and the small filing fees, the way I would calculate is whether I can earn more in that half day I spend in court and is my documented evidence clear and simple enough that i have an high probability of success.

The judges in such courts are usually impatient - they have ton of cases in their the docket, concise and simple presentation of facts and no opinions etc goes a long way, they also know you are not a lawyer so there is always some latitude for the plaintiff that usually you don't find in other places

Also your ability to sue in small claims court depends on jurisdiction, i.e. if you have any forced arbitration clauses in your contract and whether the jurisdiction has exceptions for small claims despite such clauses etc.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#82

Post by toyg » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 10:14 AM UTC

ornornor wrote: post #71

noodlesUK wrote: post #67

The blog post he mentions Identity Theft, Credit Reports and You is a really good read that has surfaced on HN a couple times. If you haven’t read it, you should. The notion of simply being an organised professional being the most intimidating thing to bureaucracies is very true in my experience. https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-r...

When I moved to Europe, I was VERY surprised to say the least that this doesn’t apply at all here. The attitude is more like “you should feel lucky we let you give us your money and purchase something from us. Now fuck off.” I tried the professional attitude, I tried threatening legal action (I have legal insurance that would pay an obscene amount of lawyer fees if it came to that), I have tried the angry consumer, I…

Europe is a big place, with very different legal systems and business customs. It’s true that businesses tend to be less customer-focused (euphemism), but depending on the specific country there may be relatively easy redress.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#83

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 10:15 AM UTC

greenkey wrote: post #74

I like this post but “unscrupulous merchant” seems harsh for a company that may have changed their policies and didn’t realize they had to inform the referring agent of those changes. It’s not uncommon for policies to change; that initial marketing spiel for bringing agents aboard doesn’t look like a contract. The reselling agent probably didn’t have a case here, and the merchant went out of their way to assist when…

[deleted]

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#84

Post by tleb_ » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 10:17 AM UTC

I wonder if this post is to +1 his number of articles on the first page, to sell his HN video course: https://gumroad.com/l/htfphn/hacker

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#85

Post by ornornor » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 10:20 AM UTC

berdario wrote: post #80

ornornor wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This becomes very time consuming, very fast. Even if the insurance pays the lawyers fees, I still have to setup an apointment, explain the situation again, give the documents, etc. It's always "small" amounts like 50-500$, i.e. amounts that it sucks throwing out the window but that aren't big enough to justify sinking even more time in chasing. I also don't believe this can be the only way. Most people don't have leg…

Isn't that the kind of stuff for which you'd rely on opening a dispute with your credit card provider?

I live in Switzerland. A lot of stuff is paid cash at the store, with a debit card, or as a bill that you receive at home later. There is no credit card involved in the transaction.

I've also tried charging back on my Swiss card once... What a mission. I was treated the same way any other store treats me: download this PDF, print it out, fill it in (5 pages), send it in the mail, wait 3 weeks, never hear back.

Compared to my North American cards: one phone call and the dispute is open. Wait a month and get the credit. End of story.

Or for cell phone issues in NA: try calling once, get nowhere, tell the regulator with time of call and name of the person, a week later get a call from the "VIP" service at the telco who will basically give me whatever I want to make the complaint go away.

There are no regulators with that kind of power that I know of here. All of the "regulators" have no teeth, and so the businesses don't fear them.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#86

Post by zogulus » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 10:21 AM UTC

Scoundreller wrote: post #4

I wonder if the merchant is sneaking any gluten into their “bread”. Edit: extra carbs I mean. Getting my diets confused here.

it's ok, they're all fad diets, just ignore all of them

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#87

Post by newdude116 » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 10:21 AM UTC

ornornor wrote: post #71

noodlesUK wrote: post #67

The blog post he mentions Identity Theft, Credit Reports and You is a really good read that has surfaced on HN a couple times. If you haven’t read it, you should. The notion of simply being an organised professional being the most intimidating thing to bureaucracies is very true in my experience. https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-r...

When I moved to Europe, I was VERY surprised to say the least that this doesn’t apply at all here. The attitude is more like “you should feel lucky we let you give us your money and purchase something from us. Now fuck off.” I tried the professional attitude, I tried threatening legal action (I have legal insurance that would pay an obscene amount of lawyer fees if it came to that), I have tried the angry consumer, I…

Use your US CC, make charge-backs. Big surprise once for Wizz Air :-)

In general: You have to find a weak spot. I have problems with a scam (ongoing) in an East European EU country and I have been trying to get the authorities for 6 months to act. Even hiring a lawyer has been extraordinary difficult. Most don't reply Emails, others charge exorbitant fees, our last lawyer is MIA so we are trying now with a lawyer that is listed on an embassy website. We are talking here about a loss of a mid 5 figure sum.

After nothing worked, I listened to the advice of a local friend and started to expose people from the government/police that do not act online. Very bold, very nasty, very below the waistline. But now it looks like I finally bombed them to the negotiation table. :-)

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#88

Post by throwaway2245 » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 10:22 AM UTC

ornornor wrote: post #71

noodlesUK wrote: post #67

The blog post he mentions Identity Theft, Credit Reports and You is a really good read that has surfaced on HN a couple times. If you haven’t read it, you should. The notion of simply being an organised professional being the most intimidating thing to bureaucracies is very true in my experience. https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-r...

When I moved to Europe, I was VERY surprised to say the least that this doesn’t apply at all here. The attitude is more like “you should feel lucky we let you give us your money and purchase something from us. Now fuck off.” I tried the professional attitude, I tried threatening legal action (I have legal insurance that would pay an obscene amount of lawyer fees if it came to that), I have tried the angry consumer, I…

> I’m at a complete loss in Europe. Any advice?

In my experience, this has stopped working so well in the last few years with companies tending to call customers' bluffs.

In most cases the best solution is: stop giving them money and go to the competitor.

Don't threaten legal action unless you already plan to follow it through: companies know this is unlikely to be followed up and will stonewall you.

If the industry has an ineffective regulator/ombudsman then going to a competitor might not help. In that case, I'd write a polite letter to your national member of parliament. (They are more likely to make this go away by fixing your personal problem, not instigating industry changes, so write with that in mind)

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#89

Post by sverhagen » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 10:22 AM UTC

ornornor wrote: post #71

noodlesUK wrote: post #67

The blog post he mentions Identity Theft, Credit Reports and You is a really good read that has surfaced on HN a couple times. If you haven’t read it, you should. The notion of simply being an organised professional being the most intimidating thing to bureaucracies is very true in my experience. https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-r...

When I moved to Europe, I was VERY surprised to say the least that this doesn’t apply at all here. The attitude is more like “you should feel lucky we let you give us your money and purchase something from us. Now fuck off.” I tried the professional attitude, I tried threatening legal action (I have legal insurance that would pay an obscene amount of lawyer fees if it came to that), I have tried the angry consumer, I…

The US system is based on liability and the threat of legal action. The European system is based on their regulatory framework. If you have a complaint that is clearly managed within that framework (my laundry machine spontaneously broke down within the statutory warranty period) they'll comply, else, yeah, good luck. I moved in the other direction (to the US) and I'm amazed when my wife gets a $50 little blender replaced at Macy's after we worked it to its limits for three or four years. For all the complaining about how things aren't how they used to be anymore, the US is great on customer service.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#90

Post by timzaman » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 10:23 AM UTC

locallost wrote: post #76

hydrogenbonds wrote: post #56

Given how much time you've wasted with this, my feeling is that overall you still lost. They owe you money for the time spent as well. Good on you for publishing this, but you should have mentioned their company name in the title, so that hopefully it show up in search engine results and this alerts others to not collaborate with them.

Passive income gets mentioned a lot here. He's collected over $100 for previous conversions and about $60 after that, and he'll keep collecting as long as the affiliate program runs. It's not a lot of money in general, but you don't start a keto blog with dreams of billions either.

The big picture here is he's on the frontpage of HN and getting a ton of very valuable attention. This guy isn't dumb.