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AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

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Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#81

Post by IfOnlyYouKnew »

prionassembly wrote: post #43
bitshift010 wrote: post #13

Chief AI Scientist at Facebook, Yann Lecun, quit Twitter after a back and forth with this particular AI researcher - https://syncedreview.com/2020/06/30/yann-lecun-quits-twitter... >I’m always amazed at how people can continue to do thing after thing like this and then turn around and ask me for some sort of extra DEI work or input. This happened to me last year. I was in the middle of a potential lawsuit for which K…

The tone of her replies is regrettable: Yann: “ML systems are biased when data is biased" Timnit: “I’m sick of this framing. Tired of it. Many people have tried to explain, many scholars. Listen to us. You can’t just reduce harms caused by ML to dataset bias. Even amidst of world wide protests people don’t hear our voices and try to learn from us, they assume they’re experts in everything. Let us lead her and you fol…

I find it strange to take issue with the "I'm so tired" line. It would seem to be entirely appropriate for circumstances where you see an argument that you have replied to many times but that completely ignores your reply. It also just doesn't strike me as particularly hostile or profane. Quitting twitter and making a show of it strikes me as a far more emotional reaction, but nobody here seems to take any issue with that?

In this case, the issue is that "it's the dataset" is attacking a straw man: nobody is accusing ML practitioners to be explicit racists actively conspiring for their models to be racially biased. Everyone understands that it is (often) a result of the underlying dataset.

But, the argument goes, understanding the genesis of such bias isn't enough to excuse it. At least not when those models are put to actual use in, say, law-enforcement contexts. Or credit agencies, or hiring decisions, or really anything.

If your dog happened to bite any red-haired kid it came across, it doesn't matter that you think red-haired kids are just as good as others, or that the dog was once mistreated by a red-haired kid. You're not going to allow the dog to get near any red-haired kids. And if you do, you'll face charges of at least negligence when some red-haired kid gets mauled.

To tie this back to AI, it would mean that as long as your models produce racially biased results, they simply aren't ready for deployment or publication. Go find better data until your work is no longer liable to inflict harm on anybody.

That's the standard for all other industries: if your car is shown to reliably kill pedestrians below a certain height in crash tests, you go back to the drawing board. Adding a sticker "don't operate car in the vicinity of children" isn't enough.

You can disagree with that reasoning (although you'd be wrong). What you can't do, as a leader in AI, is to pretend to have never heard of it, or that it is so obviously wrong that it warrants no reply whatsoever.

> have to call out the "I'm so tired" bit every time I see it.

so... I guess you're tired of it?

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#83

Post by colinmhayes »

prionassembly wrote: post #43
bitshift010 wrote: post #13

Chief AI Scientist at Facebook, Yann Lecun, quit Twitter after a back and forth with this particular AI researcher - https://syncedreview.com/2020/06/30/yann-lecun-quits-twitter... >I’m always amazed at how people can continue to do thing after thing like this and then turn around and ask me for some sort of extra DEI work or input. This happened to me last year. I was in the middle of a potential lawsuit for which K…

The tone of her replies is regrettable: Yann: “ML systems are biased when data is biased" Timnit: “I’m sick of this framing. Tired of it. Many people have tried to explain, many scholars. Listen to us. You can’t just reduce harms caused by ML to dataset bias. Even amidst of world wide protests people don’t hear our voices and try to learn from us, they assume they’re experts in everything. Let us lead her and you fol…

Tbh Lecunn kind of deserves it. He has a long history of twitter ass-ery.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#84

Post by mlindner »

barrkel wrote: post #12

If I understand the document correctly, she wants HR to be biased against hiring "privileged" people (I think that means white, possibly male too, not sure) and wants to get politicians to force the company to report to create pressure for the same.

Yeah in this case it looks like Google made the 100% right choice. Engaging in racism and sexism should get you fired, no matter who's doing it.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#88

Post by gnusty_gnurc »

roflc0ptic wrote: post #18
nickff wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions have historically been some of the most racist and discriminatory organizations in the USA.

This is so unhelpful and dumb. The US has historically been one of the most racist and discriminatory organizations in North America. Does that mean we shouldn’t engage the US? Does that mean the US can’t be less racist? Does that mean the US isn’t a tool we can try to use to make the world a better place? Unions provide countervailing power to corporate power. Racist people are racist. Sometimes these can overlap.

> The US has historically been one of the most racist and discriminatory organizations in North America.

That seems like a very US-lib centric POV where the US is a cartoonish evil-dooer.

In my experience Mexico is pretty much just as bad, even more so in different ways too - classism, racism, anti-indigenous sentiment, Malinchismo, rampant feminicide, etc.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#89

Post by tomp »

jeffbee wrote: post #8
fatnoah wrote: post #6

> And you are told after a while, that your manager can read you a privileged and confidential document and you’re not supposed to even know who contributed to this document, who wrote this feedback, what process was followed or anything Interesting. Having been on the receiving end of a (later proven to be bogus) HR complaint, this is exactly how it was handled. I was forced to respond to allegations where neither t…

That's how it is supposed to work. If you complain to HR about your manager how can they reveal your identity when your manager controls your performance review and compensation?

> That's how it is supposed to work.

Are you sure? Even primary school bullying is better, at least you can see the abuser.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#90

Post by high_derivative »

These things seem to play out like clockwork. Progressive companies hire social justice warriors into vague ethics or policy roles, let them hire their activist friends, shower them with fast track careers and promotions. It's good optics, the progressives like it because it makes them feel better about working at big techs.

Said hires have thus far, as far as I can tell, not produced anything of substantial value to any of these companies. They nevertheless become increasingly emboldened and misinterpret their situation. After all, no-one dares criticise them, they are showered with feel-good publicity. The only thing they need to do is keep their end of the deal.

Until they overstep, get fired, and cause drama by claiming everything that happened to them was due to discrimination, and not because they are toxic and disruptive.

I think this is all a good thing because it may alert some executives to the price for hiring activists into research roles.

Edit: Should add that I am purely talking about the power dynamics here, not research impact or the question of whether AI policy is an interesting subject. It is, I am just observing that it has not driven particular value to companies when compared to the negative publicity these dramas cause.

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