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World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

theguardian.com

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Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#81

Post by zed88 »

dzolob wrote: post #71
slothtrop wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing's ever enough for vegans. > Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the environment. There is increasingly more of that all the time. > On the other hand it just seems like another step into the direction of turning the chickens into optimized food machines. Another step? They aren't getting any more optimized, if anything new availab…

As long as animals are treated as commodities instead of sentient beings, yeah, nothing is going to be enough for vegans. Empathy is a great quality to cultivate.

The moral dilemma that vegans/vegetarians face is at what size we consider them sentient. Does the same apply to the micro-organism that vegans consume everyday on their salad? Or they are simply not sentient enough because we can't see them with naked eyes?

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#82

Post by JacobSuperslav »

wpietri wrote: post #78
slothtrop wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing's ever enough for vegans. > Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the environment. There is increasingly more of that all the time. > On the other hand it just seems like another step into the direction of turning the chickens into optimized food machines. Another step? They aren't getting any more optimized, if anything new availab…

> Nothing's ever enough for vegans. That's a weird complaint on a site about eternal disruption, eternal improvement of things that are basically fine already. I'm an omnivore, and I'm comfortable with it. But that doesn't keep me from recognizing the ethical issues with killing and controlling other beings to survive. I really appreciate people pushing the envelope on this. If I could eat basically the same diet but…

Hacker News, where technology > empathy

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#83

Post by dirtyid »

difosfor wrote: post #59

I suppose it's slightly more animal friendly. On the other hand it just seems like another step into the direction of turning the chickens into optimized food machines. Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the environment. Working towards one final giant culling of all unnaturally engineered animals and just continuing on with a small numb…

In terms of animal protein, aren't eggs basically optimized food machines? For more efficiency, one would have to go down to insects with better conversion ratio.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#84

Post by slothtrop »

dzolob wrote: post #71
slothtrop wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing's ever enough for vegans. > Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the environment. There is increasingly more of that all the time. > On the other hand it just seems like another step into the direction of turning the chickens into optimized food machines. Another step? They aren't getting any more optimized, if anything new availab…

As long as animals are treated as commodities instead of sentient beings, yeah, nothing is going to be enough for vegans. Empathy is a great quality to cultivate.

Demonstrated sentience/consciousness is on a gradient, from nil/very-low, to high. And somewhere in between, a gray area.

- mussels/mollusks (zero sentience) - insects (very low demonstrated consciousness) - fish (low demonstrated consciousness) - chickens/reptiles (disputed level) - dogs, dolphins, primates, etc (high)

You can't equivocate chicken sentience with human sentience. What you can do is suggest they have a high enough level of sentience to warrant that certain treatments be immoral. I think infliction of constant stress and suffering certainly would be immoral, however, raising chickens does not necessitate it. And moreover, the level of sentience is not so high that captivity in itself / exploitation be problematic. If that were true keeping domestic pets ought to be just as problematic.

Animals suffer in the wild, that is a constant. They require vigilance over a) predators, b) constant search for food, c) other natural threats. In captivity, these issues don't exist.

Notwithstanding the symbiotic evolution of chicken with humans, a chicken is arguably better off in a free-roam farm than in the wild. This is constantly ignored.

The vegan solution is such that these animals basically cease to exist (i.e. are killed) because they are more dependent on humans than their ancestors. That's what letting them be "sentient" beings instead of commodities would mean.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#85

Post by leetcrew »

slothtrop wrote: post #60
difosfor wrote: post #59

I suppose it's slightly more animal friendly. On the other hand it just seems like another step into the direction of turning the chickens into optimized food machines. Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the environment. Working towards one final giant culling of all unnaturally engineered animals and just continuing on with a small numb…

Nothing's ever enough for vegans. > Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the environment. There is increasingly more of that all the time. > On the other hand it just seems like another step into the direction of turning the chickens into optimized food machines. Another step? They aren't getting any more optimized, if anything new availab…

> Nothing's ever enough for vegans.

is that surprising? most vegans I know care more about the animals' quality of life than whether or not they end up getting slaughtered. this is a large part of why they are vegans and not merely vegetarians. interestingly, I find that they tend to be pretty accepting of hunting.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#86

Post by throwaway2245 »

zed88 wrote: post #81
dzolob wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as animals are treated as commodities instead of sentient beings, yeah, nothing is going to be enough for vegans. Empathy is a great quality to cultivate.

The moral dilemma that vegans/vegetarians face is at what size we consider them sentient. Does the same apply to the micro-organism that vegans consume everyday on their salad? Or they are simply not sentient enough because we can't see them with naked eyes?

Vegans don't face any such dilemma.

The animal kingdom is quite clearly defined and vegans are pretty consistently defined as not consuming animals or animal products.

If you wish to take a more extreme position that considers other forms of life (and almost nobody appears to), that's no longer just veganism: it's something more extreme.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#87

Post by dschuler »

ce4 wrote: post #22
csunbird wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it only in REWE or can we find them in Edeka/Aldi/Lidl? REWE is a little bit away from my location.

Wait a bit for market forces to do their work. I'm sure the others will follow suit Edit: the article is from 2018. Lidl has announced recently that they plan to have that for their organic eggs starting in early 2021 and their free range eggs until end of 2021. Source: https://unternehmen.lidl.de/pressreleases/2020/200714_lidl_e...

Free range eggs by end of 2021 right?

This is great! Hopefully Lidl will have them in other countries as well so I can buy them.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#88

Post by beigeoak »

> If you can determine the sex of a hatching egg you can entirely dispense with the culling of live male chicks

Here is the video, timestamped (24m30s) to the "culling" of male chicks. Trigger Warnings: NSFL, Gore.

https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko?t=1470

On a purely personal note, this documentary made me re-evaluate my diet. I'm still not strong enough to be off meat even though that is what I want, but I have successfully abstained from chicken, pig and cow for the past 2 years.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#89

Post by [deleted] »

slothtrop wrote: post #70
kevinmgranger wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming all vegans feel the way the person you're replying to is a bit of a broad brush, no?

It's a broad one. We've been here often, if for the sake of argument you control for issues that are brought forth like suffering or the environment, the overwhelming response will default back to saying those thing actually didn't matter because meat is murder anyway. Granted "some vegans" would be more precise, but that's still the sentiment.

[deleted]

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#90

Post by throwaway2245 »

slothtrop wrote: post #70
kevinmgranger wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming all vegans feel the way the person you're replying to is a bit of a broad brush, no?

It's a broad one. We've been here often, if for the sake of argument you control for issues that are brought forth like suffering or the environment, the overwhelming response will default back to saying those thing actually didn't matter because meat is murder anyway. Granted "some vegans" would be more precise, but that's still the sentiment.

The parent didn't indicate they were a vegan at all, they just described an ideal.

You were just so ready to attack vegans that you don't appear to have read what they wrote.

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