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Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle?

medievalists.net

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Re: Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle?

#81
https://www.britannica.com/technology/military-technology/Th... Britannica is telling quite a lot on how technology and society changed.

What is fascinating is that a switch to offensive weapons seem to have helped with bringing about a society with more equal opportunities as compared to feudalism: there was no point to maintain feudalism, when a few mounted and armored warriors could no longer defeat huge crowds of peasants. There were other factors as shortage of working hands due to the great plague, so that they had to pay for labor instead of the usual practice, but i guess you can't reduce anything that big to a single factor, as usual.

In ancient history you had a similar theme: The bronze age came with small elite armies and expensive charriots, later larger crowds of warriors with cheaper arms made of iron defeated them, and that also came with opportunities for more people and more egalitarian religions, more accessible syllabic writing system - lots of things became more inclusive.

Re: Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle?

#82
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peasants ate very well, they had to, in order to work the fields. Salmon were considered peasant food, a peasant would go by the river and fish one up for lunch. Then probably eat some kind of pottage, and bread. Maybe eggs. I'd wager peasants can be tough as fuck, it's only question of how well trained and equipped they are for fighting.

> Peasants ate very well, they had to, in order to work the fields. If one doesn't care about the health of their workers, actually, one doesn't really need to feed them much.

If one doesn’t give a fuck then there’s also no reason to deny them either. Peasants are responsible for feeding themselves.

Re: Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle?

#83
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peasants ate very well, they had to, in order to work the fields. Salmon were considered peasant food, a peasant would go by the river and fish one up for lunch. Then probably eat some kind of pottage, and bread. Maybe eggs. I'd wager peasants can be tough as fuck, it's only question of how well trained and equipped they are for fighting.

Peasants by and large ate pretty poorly, and their diet consisted mostly of bread. They also had an unfortunate tendency to under-nourish children during lean times, because the adults still needed to be well fed so that they could farm. This is the reason why the average height of a European man has increased more than 6 inches since the Middle Ages.

Rich artisanal whole grain bread and slaughtered hogs and fish.

Re: Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle?

#84

I need help understanding how a lance is practically used. Wouldn't you impale one person and immediately lose your lance or fall off your horse trying to hold it?

Yes. Or, if afoot, warriors could brace the lance (against a rock or with the foot) in the ground and direct the speartip into a charging horse. A line of lances/pikes kills or fatally wounds horses and unseats their riders.

Riders can be killed or trapped if their horse falls on them. And once on the ground a knight in armor is virtually helpless b/c he has little mobility. He could easily be killed with blows to the neck or head with a rock or tree limb. A handful of dirt stuffed into his mouth would quickly suffocate him.

Re: Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle?

#85
I think it was Metatron or maybe Shadiversity on youtube talked about this once and I remember one point in favour of the Knights is that they dedicate a lot of their lives to training while peasants don't, so one advantage that Knights have is that they are simply better trained, many having trained from a young age.

Re: Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle?

#86

It’s not just weaponry, most of fighting is nutrition, I’m surprised the article doesn’t discuss that. Given that the article says the knights and their weaponry were correlated to wealth and power, I would expect the knights to be better fed than the peasants as well.

Working the field all day is going to make someone tough and lean. If it’s a particular lazy knight that enjoys too much food, well. Would be an interesting overlap of nutrition vs fitness vs indulgence.

Farmer strength is incredible. I remember rough housing with a farmer friend as a teenager. I was pretty athletic and he was smaller (~15kg lighter) but probably twice as strong as I was. Functional strength. He was basically a teenager with old man strength.

Re: Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle?

#87

Mindset would likely have played a big part, and battle then vs battle now were very different things. A peasant could absolutely kill a knight but probably not in battle, and the opportunity to do so would be unlikely to arise because the knight would probably not be in a position to be ambushed. For most peasantry the very thought of going after a knight would also be almost unimaginable. Seems like a not-unreasona…

> Seems like a not-unreasonable comparison today would be "could a civilian kill an armored vehicle?" In that case, isn't the answer a definite yes?

Only if the civilian has a rpg or IED and then he probably would not be a civilian anymore, but a specialized guerilla fighter, if he manages to take out a modern tank.

Re: Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle?

#88
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working the field all day is going to make someone tough and lean. If it’s a particular lazy knight that enjoys too much food, well. Would be an interesting overlap of nutrition vs fitness vs indulgence.

> lazy knight That might be possible , but is it likely? A knight is basically a medieval super-soldier: an individual with a huge amount of ongoing personal+state investment going into their ability to project power on the field. Even if they're also a feudal lord who lives within their own holdings (and therefore someone who's not beholden to anyone around them, only to a distant king) everyone working for them is…

That might be possible, but is it likely? A knight is basically a medieval super-soldier: an individual with a huge amount of ongoing personal+state investment going into their ability to project power on the field.

This isn't really correct. Most knights didn't have a huge incomes (if they did they would become Lords).

A Knight wasn't a military position - it was primarily a class and status designation, which came with some military obligations. These could be met by supplying another person to your lord to do the fighting for you.

Often a Knight would supply their lord with their younger son for example, since their older son would be the heir.

To become a knight in the medieval times in the UK you needed an income of 40 pounds a year[1] which converts to around 30,000 pounds/year these days.[2]

> Wouldn't there be mass resentment within a lazy knight's power structure, that would lead to said power structure toppling or mutiny-ing?

Yes, indeed peasant revolts were a thing. And a lot of most knights "fighting" involved hunting down rebellious peasants armed with sticks.

[1] https://www.quora.com/Were-Medieval-English-knights-wealthy-...

[2] https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/currency-converter/#curr...

Re: Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle?

#89
post #31
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, there were a lot of fat and/or incompetent knights. I assure you.

Fat, certainly, but being fat doesn't imply you can't swing a sword on a horse. You can have a lot of core strength and good arms, but if you eat a lot of puddings, the muscle will be covered in enough mass that you'll just look fat. (Especially in a portrait you're just sitting for, rather than flexing for.) As for incompetent knights, I'm genuinely confused: how did they survive in the role for any length of time?…

> As for incompetent knights, I'm genuinely confused: how did they survive in the role for any length of time?

Most knights didn't fight often - if at all. Even when called upon they could just supply another person instead of themselves.

Re: Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle?

#90
post #31
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, there were a lot of fat and/or incompetent knights. I assure you.

Fat, certainly, but being fat doesn't imply you can't swing a sword on a horse. You can have a lot of core strength and good arms, but if you eat a lot of puddings, the muscle will be covered in enough mass that you'll just look fat. (Especially in a portrait you're just sitting for, rather than flexing for.) As for incompetent knights, I'm genuinely confused: how did they survive in the role for any length of time?…

> how did they survive in the role for any length of time?

Not all knights saw that much action. I agree though that they had strong incentives, besides survival in battle, to be at least defensibly competent.

As to those incentives -- they had a multi-generation arrangement with the sovereign: to supply a certain number of mounted men when he called for it, maybe determined by the size of landlord they were, and in return the king let them keep dominating economic activity in their usually-rural area. The knight held the purse strings and could extract as much as he felt prudent from his tenants (farmers etc).

But the knight would employ Men-at-Arms. These were the guys with what we think of today as 'Knight Skills,' but no land/title/purse. They'd be taken care of, and they'd definitely try to keep their boss alive. Or sometimes an older knight might send the required men without going himself. (This varies a lot by time period of course).

So on the one hand, they didn't have to do superhero stuff if they didn't want to.

On the other hand -- their whole reason to exist was intensely martial; the structure of society reflected the fact that folks riding horse-tanks dominated all of civilization. There were good reasons for someone with a coveted horse-tank position to, yes, be able to be ride, be at least minimally competent, and show up to risk their lives when the king calls for it, or else risk losing their privileged position.

> the reason anyone bothered to work for them at all, rather than towns responding to recruitment attempts exactly the same as invasion attempts, with stoning, boiling oil from the rooftops, etc

Well, the knight owned the siege-proof fortresses in the area; that's one of those things they did well in feudal times, picking geographical strong points for fortresses.

The knight also owned the town people lived in too, the farms, houses, etc. His family got them way back when kings started deciding that they didn't want the town to send 5 random foot soldiers when he called -- he'd rather have 1 professional, well-equipped horseman with mail, shield, lance etc, and if you could make that happen he'd just give you your neighbor's stuff to keep making it happen in perpetuity.

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