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Apple removes then restores DoNotPay app in the App Store

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Re: Apple removes then restores DoNotPay app in the App Store

#81

Post by pmiller2 »

alexvoda wrote: post #47
russli1993 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no, on consoles, the platform holder has to approve every single game to be made into discs. If your game violates Sony and Microsoft's rules, they won't let you make the discs. Its same with the app store.

Those restrictions are made through use of trademarks, limiting access to development tools through contracts and code signing. First can be sidestepped by not mentioning the trademarks of the platform holder anywhere. The second can be side stepped through reverse engineering. Third can eventually be hacked out of the device (like the recent encryption key reveal on Intel CPU's) and was not applicable to older gener…

"Can be sidestepped" is a far cry from "average users can do this," you know.

Re: Apple removes then restores DoNotPay app in the App Store

#82

Post by gotem »

sushid wrote: post #40

As an aside, their website uses a serious dark pattern to trick users into paying. Their app is purportedly for helping you reclaim your fees so it seems like adding a bank account makes sense after you input your email address. Off to the right you see the text > "...you agree to charge a $36 a year subscription to this payment method." There's no mention of a $36 / annual anywhere else. It's on the margin to clearl…

I believe they used to not even mention it in their checkout and instead hid the $3 a month subscription in TOS.

Re: Apple removes then restores DoNotPay app in the App Store

#83

Post by DarkWiiPlayer »

mhh__ wrote: post #69
DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Computers, especially those with massive market share, should be open to 3rd party installs. Why? If you don't like it, don't buy their product. I think iPhone is shit because of this, and other tactics to lock the user in, so I don't use it and wouldn't recommend it to anybody.

I think relying on perfect information from the consumer is a little naive? It's easy to (say) find the phone with the best camera, but you never know you need freedom until it's too late.

There are mechanisms to inform the user of this. Tech magazines etc. should be the ones responsible for informing the user that they are being locked in, even if the HW is good.

But in reality, most people know. It's just that they tell themselves they won't ever want to do a thing until they kinda do and at that point they just bought the wrong product for that purpose.

Re: Apple removes then restores DoNotPay app in the App Store

#84

Post by DarkWiiPlayer »

mavhc wrote: post #60
DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Computers, especially those with massive market share, should be open to 3rd party installs. Why? If you don't like it, don't buy their product. I think iPhone is shit because of this, and other tactics to lock the user in, so I don't use it and wouldn't recommend it to anybody.

Maybe iOS devices should come with a big warning label like cigarettes: Warning: Apple solely controls what apps you can run on this device

The problem is: Installing software on a phone hasn't ever been "normal" before a few years ago, and since then, it has never really been about installing any random program like it is on PC.

We're right in the middle of shift of perspective where smart-phones stop being just cellphones with some extra features but actually peoples main access to general computing.

But to many they still are just "phones", and tech companies are taking advantage of this situation to shape the mentality around them in a different way than with desktop computing. This is their right, although it's obviously evil.

It's the media (tech magazines, youtube channels, etc.) that should be clearing up these misconceptions, but the sad reality is, people don't care. If I try explaining to a non-IT friend why installing any random software is essential, they look at me like I'm wearing a tin foil hat. People don't understand how quickly computation is turning into an important aspect of freedom.

Re: Apple removes then restores DoNotPay app in the App Store

#85

Post by alexvoda »

machello13 wrote: post #78
alexvoda wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those restrictions are made through use of trademarks, limiting access to development tools through contracts and code signing. First can be sidestepped by not mentioning the trademarks of the platform holder anywhere. The second can be side stepped through reverse engineering. Third can eventually be hacked out of the device (like the recent encryption key reveal on Intel CPU's) and was not applicable to older gener…

Aren't all of those also true with iOS? Have you heard of Jailbreaking?

Of course I heard of Jailbreaking. The difference was that jailbreaking and modding consoles requires modified hardware to run unapproved software (digitally distributed). But reverse engineering the development tools and the signing keys in order to create unapproved disks or cartridges is a viable method to create software for unmodified devices. See FreeDVDBoot for the PS2.

Re: Apple removes then restores DoNotPay app in the App Store

#86

Post by alexvoda »

pmiller2 wrote: post #81
alexvoda wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those restrictions are made through use of trademarks, limiting access to development tools through contracts and code signing. First can be sidestepped by not mentioning the trademarks of the platform holder anywhere. The second can be side stepped through reverse engineering. Third can eventually be hacked out of the device (like the recent encryption key reveal on Intel CPU's) and was not applicable to older gener…

"Can be sidestepped" is a far cry from "average users can do this," you know.

And yet it is done as proven by new software development efforts for antiquated platforms like the NES, SNES, GBA, N64 or PS2. New cartridges are being made today. The original vendor has no responsibility to make alternative software easy. But I believe they should have a responsibility to not make it impossible or intentionally harder than necessary.

Re: Apple removes then restores DoNotPay app in the App Store

#87

Post by alexvoda »

enos_feedler wrote: post #75
alexvoda wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not caring is precisely the problem. A problem that leads to erosion of ownership. And this leads to a form of communism. Apple, Google, etc. are in some ways similar to the state in communist regimes. They own everything but they promise to give you fair access until they don't.

I don't think it is about "not caring". Apple cares intensely about the products they build taking into the needs of their addressable market. There are 1000s of product decisions made between inception and distribution into your hands. I don't believe that the one decision around open and free programmability of native OS-level applications has any association with ownership to them.

I am referring to the customers not caring about whether they truly own the devices they buy.

Re: Apple removes then restores DoNotPay app in the App Store

#88

Post by alexvoda »

chacha2 wrote: post #76
alexvoda wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not caring is precisely the problem. A problem that leads to erosion of ownership. And this leads to a form of communism. Apple, Google, etc. are in some ways similar to the state in communist regimes. They own everything but they promise to give you fair access until they don't.

How is a capitalist monopoly communism? These operating systems are the companies private property, they can do what they want with them. The only way to prevent them is by abolishing their property and putting them in the public domain.

The software is the property of the companies of course. But the devices, once purchased are the property of the customer. However, the customer lacks full ownership of the device because the customer lacks full control over the device as long as the customer can not replace the software with other software regardless of the existence of that other software.

I own a PC I buy preinstalled with Windows because I can replace Windows with something else. As long as I can find spare parts I can make it work. Windows is just a part.

I do not fully own a device with a locked bootloader that can not be unlocked because once the vendor no longer provides updates I can not replace the broken part (software). The vendor maintains a degree of ownership over a device I purchased (applicable to phones, cars, tractors, etc.).

A capitalist monopoly is not communism. It is not what I said. I said the relationship between users and corporations (Apple, Google, Facebook, Netflix, MS, Tesla, John Deere, etc.) has a degree of resemblance to the relationship between citizens and the state in comunist regimes.

Re: Apple removes then restores DoNotPay app in the App Store

#89

Post by alexvoda »

enos_feedler wrote: post #74
alexvoda wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they are making that decision for users. The devices are owned by users since the day of purchase. Why can’t users make that decision for themselves? Granted, many people choose to buy Apple devices because they do not desire general computing devices and instead desire appliances. But giving up that control erodes ownership itself. A device not fully controlled by you is not fully owned by you. You may own a…

How many product decisions are made on your behalf between the inception of product specification and distribution to you? Just because you purchase the final thing doesn't entitle you to have control over product decisions. I don't think it makes sense to entangle ownership and programmability as a product feature. Your reference to "general computing device" here is a concept that a particular market identifies wit…

It should entitle me to make any modification I want to the device I purchased. If I am not allowed to modify it I do not fully own it. I am only granted a license to use hardware I purchased (for a limited time even, see Sonnos).

Re: Apple removes then restores DoNotPay app in the App Store

#90

Post by alexvoda »

enos_feedler wrote: post #74
alexvoda wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they are making that decision for users. The devices are owned by users since the day of purchase. Why can’t users make that decision for themselves? Granted, many people choose to buy Apple devices because they do not desire general computing devices and instead desire appliances. But giving up that control erodes ownership itself. A device not fully controlled by you is not fully owned by you. You may own a…

How many product decisions are made on your behalf between the inception of product specification and distribution to you? Just because you purchase the final thing doesn't entitle you to have control over product decisions. I don't think it makes sense to entangle ownership and programmability as a product feature. Your reference to "general computing device" here is a concept that a particular market identifies wit…

You do of course have to resign that code every week or so or it stops working. You are also limited to the APIs Apple provides. And if you want to publish that code, you have to get it approved by Apple. Otherwise you are stuck distributing source code that other people have to pay X$ for a dev account and resign every 7 days.

All of this is not applicable to other platforms (maybe to consoles but I already commented about them on this thread).

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