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Mysterious ‘super-archaic’ populations had multiple trysts with human ancestors

sciencemag.org

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Re: Mysterious ‘super-archaic’ populations had multiple trysts with human ancestors

#81
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, Canis dates to Linnaeus, so that it's paraphyletic should be the presumption.

what about Equus? that's also introduced by Linnaeus AFAIK; could you please explain what you mean; I'm actually a noob so please state things explicitly so I can understand things (I'm ok with looking specific things up, but it's harder to look up "between the lines" things)

Sure! I mean, I'm an amateur myself, mainly having become interested in the subject because of my ongoing fascination with wasps. But, being also an old birder, I wanted to develop a general sense of what "kind" of wasp I'm looking at when I see one, the same way I can tell an accipiter from a buteo from an osprey. That's turned out to be a surprisingly complex proposition! So here's what I've learned about taxonomy and cladistics as part of my research into wasps. Again, I'm an amateur, so if any actual molecular taxonomists should happen by, I hope they'll correct the goofs I am surely about to perpetrate.

Taxonomy, a specialization of biology, is the study of how organisms can be usefully classified. A major aspect of that study is the determination of how species are categorized, and how ancestral relationships are recognized. When this is done through molecular phylogeny (ie direct analysis of genetic relatedness and ancestry), the result is a directed graph called a "phylogenetic tree", whose nodes denote species and whose edges denote descent. Such a tree is called "monophyletic", meaning that it contains both, and only, a specific common ancestor and all descendants of that ancestor. Any subgraph from a single node of a monophyletic tree is also monophyletic. In this way, it's possible to establish a relatively unambiguous understanding of descent and relatedness among possibly widely varying organisms.

There are other kinds of classification which often produce groupings that make an intuitive kind of sense in terms of similar characteristics and the like, but which don't accurately represent relatedness. The Linnaean taxonomy is one of these, and the two terms used in cladistics to describe its categories of error are "paraphyly" and "polyphyly".

A paraphyletic grouping is one which contains a single common ancestor, but fails to contain all of its descendants. Many hymenopteran families are like this, such as Crabronidae, which is "all Apoidea that aren't bees" - bees and ants being actually descended from basal wasps, which were themselves descended from an even more basal shared ancestor with modern sawflies. Paraphyletic groupings can be useful, but aren't to be relied upon to accurately describe descent, and are replaced with monophyletic groupings as the necessary research and analysis is performed.

A polyphyletic grouping is one which fails to contain a common ancestor. For example, the European paper wasp (P. dominula) and the eastern yellowjacket (V. maculifrons) closely resemble one another in size, body shape, markings, and much behavior. Based on that, a Linnaean taxonomist might classify them as separate species within a single genus. This (hypothetical) genus would be polyphyletic; while these two wasps are indeed closely related, they're not that closely related, sharing a common ancestor with several other genera including all other social wasps and a sizable fraction of solitary species.

How exactly this all relates to the concept of "species" is hard to really define, at least for me as an amateur, but I think maybe also for professionals in the field. The classical definition, that a species consists of all individuals able to interbreed and produce fertile offspring, and none which cannot, fails to explain cases like wolves and coyotes, lions and tigers, or horses and donkeys - all pairs which are classified as separate species, but nonetheless are able to produce fertile offspring at least some of the time. Phylogenetics offers a distinct species concept [1], defining a species in terms of interrelatedness and innovation in traits as compared with ancestors - I suppose the classical definition could be called "horizontal", while the phylogenetic one could be called "vertical". Notably, the phylogenetic species concept appears to place no significance on interfertility or the lack thereof, which would mean that Equus, Canis, and Felis are not necessarily paraphyletic at all - they might be, but that wouldn't be defined on the basis of interfertility.

In the limiting case, I suppose that means each individual organism could be considered to constitute a unique species, although that is probably nonsense and certainly too granular to be useful. In any case, I hope all this answers your question, and provides some ground for further study. I've certainly learned something today, just looking up references! Thanks for the impetus to further systematize my understanding of the subject.

[1] https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20...

Re: Mysterious ‘super-archaic’ populations had multiple trysts with human ancestors

#82
post #3

Interesting in the limelight of pandemics in regards to the closing paragraph: > Today, H. sapiens doesn’t have the possibility of quickly grabbing a load of diversity by mating with another group: For perhaps the first time in our history, we’re the only humans on the planet. It’s another reason to miss our extinct cousins, says population geneticist Carina Schlebusch of Uppsala University. “To have such a large den…

Even as the single human species we used to be spread into isolated groups, that's why different populations have specificities (e.g. skin colour, but also other adaptations). Now that we have such a huge and interconnected population diversity will fade and adaptation will slow.

Speciation is an ongoing process and it's happening right now in the human population.

https://news.sky.com/story/human-microevolution-sees-more-pe...

Re: Mysterious ‘super-archaic’ populations had multiple trysts with human ancestors

#83
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't even have to go as exotic as ring species. Climb up the evolutionary tree through each of your ancestors to some slime creature a billion years ago, and then climb down to your pet dog. Each connected node in that step can interbreed, but you can't mate with Fido. I guess it's kind of a temporal ring species.

Ring species are so called because their breeding relationships form a cycle. You're only describing a chain. You would have described a ring species if you could mate with your dog. (Also note that while it's perfectly possible to walk up from humans to an ancestral slime creature, and then back down to dogs, most of the steps along that path will be shared between humans and dogs, like a Y with a very, very long le…

The point about the most recent common ancestor is well taken, but, at least according to my layman's level understanding of ring species, the two ends of the "ring" aren't expected to interbreed. Wikipedia supports that definition (and if it's wrong, should be updated by someone more knowledgeable than myself).

Re: Mysterious ‘super-archaic’ populations had multiple trysts with human ancestors

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few instances of "new blood" in a population can be enough because it will then spread over generations. In many countries the proportion of foreign-born is >10%, so the mixing is quite intense in terms of evolutionary time scales. If that continues for a few hundreds of years, diversity will have significantly reduced. Indeed, some suggest that e.g. skin colour may largely homogenise within a thousand years. A tho…

So Science Fiction Story time, immortal finds it difficult to blend into future less diverse population because their personal characteristics are no longer widely enough found that they can just wander off and go live somewhere else. The last X is an easy target. on edit: for anyone unfamiliar with this trope, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Requiem_for_Methuselah or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_from_Eart…

There are a number of other stories which address this as well.

Sometimes without the trope you mention (L. Sprague de Kamp's The Gnarly Man[0])

And sometimes with a variation on it (Heinlein's Methuselah's Children[1]), which he follows up with some of the same characters, but not invoking the trope (Time Enough for Love[2]).

There are many others of course, those are just the ones that came off the top of my head.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gnarly_Man

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methuselah%27s_Children

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Enough_for_Love

Re: Mysterious ‘super-archaic’ populations had multiple trysts with human ancestors

#85
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even as the single human species we used to be spread into isolated groups, that's why different populations have specificities (e.g. skin colour, but also other adaptations). Now that we have such a huge and interconnected population diversity will fade and adaptation will slow.

Speciation is an ongoing process and it's happening right now in the human population. https://news.sky.com/story/human-microevolution-sees-more-pe...

Evolution may of course be ongoing but not speciation in the sense of splitting into different species as we are now constantly mixing.

Speciation processes may return once we start colonising other planets as it is highly possible that physical contacts between populations will stop.

Re: Mysterious ‘super-archaic’ populations had multiple trysts with human ancestors

#86
post #3

Interesting in the limelight of pandemics in regards to the closing paragraph: > Today, H. sapiens doesn’t have the possibility of quickly grabbing a load of diversity by mating with another group: For perhaps the first time in our history, we’re the only humans on the planet. It’s another reason to miss our extinct cousins, says population geneticist Carina Schlebusch of Uppsala University. “To have such a large den…

Even as the single human species we used to be spread into isolated groups, that's why different populations have specificities (e.g. skin colour, but also other adaptations). Now that we have such a huge and interconnected population diversity will fade and adaptation will slow.

Are you advocating against interracial unions? On an argument that mixing leads to less diversity over time, thus implying that mating with those those most like ourselves is more genetically desirable? Ever heard of blue blood, or the Hapburgs?

Re: Mysterious ‘super-archaic’ populations had multiple trysts with human ancestors

#87

It's a running joke in Dr who, where as humanity spreads into the starts there eventually ceases to be any pure humans (and many other alien species) because humans will mate with anything. I think it's most interesting to think of how fluid what we mean by species really is. We've always known it was fluid, but I think many people never really consider that when thinking about ourselves.

I always wondered if there could be some sort of in-world explanation as to why all the aliens in star trek/wars are so ...humanoid.

>I always wondered if there could be some sort of in-world explanation as to why all the aliens in star trek/wars are so ...humanoid.

I'd say that for most Sci-Fi Movies/TV there's a couple of reasons:

1. Non-humanoids are less relatable than humanoids;

2. Budgetary restrictions and the relative immaturity of CGI holds us back from creating fairly realistic and relatable alien species.

Re: Mysterious ‘super-archaic’ populations had multiple trysts with human ancestors

#88
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s that all the worlds were seeded by some sort of progenitor race millions of years ago. Also they can interbreed I believe.

I guess the ancestors of humans aren't in Earth's fossil record in the Star Trek universe?

Of the two relevant episodes in my other comment ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24726335 ), the TOS one explicitly states that that seeding doesn't apply to Earth because of the fossil record and when it occurred (but could explain some of Vulcan's history), while the other one was so early on that Earth was still in the primordial-soup stage.

Re: Mysterious ‘super-archaic’ populations had multiple trysts with human ancestors

#89
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the 1918 spanish flu death rate was around 20%. It was only in March 2020 after covid19 was mainstream news it got edited in Wikipedia to show 2% (not sure if that's changed by now), you can check the edit history. But in short, in 1918, there were coffin shortages, compared to the toilet paper shortages with covid19. covid19 and the Spanish flu are not even in the same weight class, not even a little bit, whereas ye…

If the flu is .1% and CV19 is between 0.5-1%,that means that it is between 5 and 10 times as deadly. I'm not sure I would call that 'about the same'. Also, these are the numbers for CV19 given unprecedented social distancing measures, entire hospitals dedicated to it, border closures and so on. If nothing had been done, it seems likely, given regional examples like Italy's Bergamo area, the death rate could easily be…

its not a secret nor disputed that the definition of a covid19 death is anyone who happens to die and is also covid19+. its also no secret nor disputed that many hospitals have and still calling any respiratory death a covid19 death without testing if they are covid19+. even public health officials calling for forever lockdowns acknowledge at least half of all of the covid19 deaths would have died in 2020 regardless.

It also didnt help that our health system was killing covid19 patients by giving putting them too aggressively on respirators. it's an inconvenient truth you get shouted at for bringing up.

Even with these absurd metrics for mortality, its clocking in at .3%. So in my opinion, its in the same weight class as the flu, but if you have such a problem with it, that's why I qualified the statement as I said it, depending on what your threshold is.

Keep in mind, the flu at the end of 2019 going into 2020 was a particularly bad flu. the mortality rate of those going to the hospital was around 6% according to the CDC.

it would not be 100 times worse than the flu. we have so much data on covid19 now, and nothing has really changed since the cruise ships, which was basically a free experiment for the world that has been promptly ignored over and over.

Re: Mysterious ‘super-archaic’ populations had multiple trysts with human ancestors

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wondered if there could be some sort of in-world explanation as to why all the aliens in star trek/wars are so ...humanoid.

>I always wondered if there could be some sort of in-world explanation as to why all the aliens in star trek/wars are so ...humanoid. I'd say that for most Sci-Fi Movies/TV there's a couple of reasons: 1. Non-humanoids are less relatable than humanoids; 2. Budgetary restrictions and the relative immaturity of CGI holds us back from creating fairly realistic and relatable alien species.

Yes, that's the real reasons. But by 'in-world' I meant something that could be explained within the story/world-building to justify/explain it away.
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