How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry • Hacker News Board

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#81

Post by renewiltord » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 8:48 PM UTC

dayjobpork wrote: post #26

renewiltord wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easy. I'm not anti-immigrant and I know large groups of disgruntled software engineers (precisely the union-fans) are. So I need to reduce their power. So I'm anti-union.

This literally makes no sense. Australian unions have been giving free representation to immigrants bring exploited by employers

And then, for those in Australia that support that cultural heritage of labour unity, may their unions prosper.

If it will offer clarification, I speak in the context of America.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#82

Post by ardy42 » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 8:49 PM UTC

solidasparagus wrote: post #68

tekdude wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, people always assume that only one type of union exists, and that it can only really work for low-skill interchangeable workers. That this belief is so widespread is actually a testament to the effectiveness of anti-union messaging... However, not all unions operate on that model. One major example: the Screen Actors Guild > According to SAG's Mission Statement, the Guild sought to: negotiate and enforce collect…

Doesn't it also prevent them from using their real names in their work if anyone already has that name? And don't you have to pay $3k to join + 1.85% of your income (for the majority of actors who make less than $200,000 per year - special rules help the members who make lots of money from having to pay too much)? Plus you can't work on whatever you want - you are only allowed to work with producers that have an acti…

Yeah, but so what? Don't most organization have rules designed to allow them to function as an organization or solve specific problems they encounter? It's not like an Apple employee can freely blog about the unreleased product they're working on or simultaneously work with Samsung on a competing product.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#83

Post by jackcosgrove » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 8:51 PM UTC

dpc_pw wrote: post #27

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

> Tech workers are in so much demand

> Also, barriers to entry in software are almost 0

One of these statements has to be false. I think it's the second one.

It's true that software has few regulatory or credential barriers. However not everyone is cut out for a career in tech. In fact very few are. This natural moat keeps the supply of workers lower than other industries, making unions less necessary.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#84

Post by heavyset_go » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 8:51 PM UTC

dpc_pw wrote: post #27

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

> Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power

Nonsense. Adobe, Apple, Google, Intel, Intuit, Pixar, Lucasfilm and eBay all colluded with each other to keep tech worker compensation below its market rate[1].

Good luck negotiating a group health plan that an employer buys as a single employee.

> Given all that I personally think the downsides of unions in tech would be much higher than the upsides.

I would rather go with the facts, and not how you in particular feel about the issue.

The facts are that white collar employees that are union members have higher pay[2], better benefits, more time off, and report higher life satisfaction[3] compared to their non-union peers.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...

[2] https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/04/art2full.pdf

[3] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0160449X16643321

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#85

Post by chrisseaton » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 8:53 PM UTC

panic wrote: post #76

gedy wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of it is that in-demand, well paid workers don't have patience for the BS work rules that unions are notorious for. It might be unfair characterization, but "you can't change/test that code, that's role X", and other such bureaucracy can be really draining.

A union is just an organization which represents the interests of workers. If we don't want BS work rules, we don't have to have them. Instead, we could have things like: 1. abolition of non-compete agreements 2. ownership of code we write when we're not at work 3. standards for privacy and security enforced by working engineers and not by management Maybe your list is different than mine, but if you can think of any…

> A union is just an organization which represents the interests of workers.

A union isn't just that, though is it?

It's also a beast in its own right, with its own politics and power struggles and debates and meetings and people taking a paycheck from your union dues.

A union doesn't even necessarily act in your interests. It acts in the interests of the majority of members, who may be out to actively harm your interests. And versus its own survival a union is never going to put your interests first. Why would it?

> If we don't want BS work rules, we don't have to have them.

Right but what if your colleagues what these BS work rules? What if you're junior and they want pay by seniority?

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#86

Post by alexashka » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 8:53 PM UTC

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

It's the ideal of maximum personal freedom.

Anything that infringes upon personal freedom in any way is seen as a negative.

This is not a tech ideal so much as a capable person's ideal, because capable people are by definition surrounded by people less capable than they are and often dream of nothing more than to rise above them, through merit and hard work.

Merit and hard work gets you places in tech, hence anyone remotely capable is mostly satisfied with the status quo.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#87

Post by save_ferris » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 8:53 PM UTC

dpc_pw wrote: post #27

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

> I would rather see more laws universally protecting intellectual workers like e.g. non-enforcability of non-compete clauses and alikes.

How exactly do you see something like this coming to fruition without labor organization? There’s no way federal law like this happens without some sort of coordinated effort to compel congress to pass such a law.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#88

Post by mattacular » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 8:53 PM UTC

dpc_pw wrote: post #27

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

> Also, barriers to entry in software are almost 0

I'm sorry but that is not true at all.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#89

Post by oh_sigh » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 8:53 PM UTC

heavyset_go wrote: post #84

dpc_pw wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

> Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power Nonsense. Adobe, Apple, Google, Intel, Intuit, Pixar, Lucasfilm and eBay all colluded with each other to keep tech worker compensation below its market rate[1]. Good luck negotiating a group health plan that an employer buys as a single employee. > Given all that I personally think the downsides of unions in tech…

How would a tech union help in that case?

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#90

Post by solidasparagus » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 8:54 PM UTC

ardy42 wrote: post #82

solidasparagus wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't it also prevent them from using their real names in their work if anyone already has that name? And don't you have to pay $3k to join + 1.85% of your income (for the majority of actors who make less than $200,000 per year - special rules help the members who make lots of money from having to pay too much)? Plus you can't work on whatever you want - you are only allowed to work with producers that have an acti…

Yeah, but so what? Don't most organization have rules designed to allow them to function as an organization or solve specific problems they encounter? It's not like an Apple employee can freely blog about the unreleased product they're working on or simultaneously work with Samsung on a competing product.

Yeah. And the SAG rules aren't unreasonable IMO. But a union is not replacing the existing rules of your workplace, it's a second group of people who can add rules.