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How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

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Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#81

Post by nashashmi »

wyldfire wrote: post #16
schoen wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I took a German course, my textbook had a section something like "was machen Sie für die Umwelt?" ('what do you do for the environment?'), and the first example answer in dialogues was always "Müll trennen" (sorting kinds of trash for recycling). It was amazing what a cultural force this habit seems to have for many Germans. I still remember that one of the textbooks even started an answer with "natürlich…

> I still remember that one of the textbooks even started an answer with "natürlich trenne ich Müll" ('well, of course I sort my trash...'). Here in the US many communities use "single-stream" recycling (and we applaud ourselves for the effort too). But I wonder how many communities really deliver those contents back to production, especially since China stopped importing it.

Single stream recycling is a scam. It started recently. But it is making its way everywhere because it eases collection systems on municipalities.

Few people realize that when you mix paper and beverage containers, you get non-recyclable paper and difficult to recycle beverage containers. Further shredded paper cannot be recycled in single stream systems. It wreaks havoc on the system.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#82

Post by syntheticnature »

gumby wrote: post #49
quercusa wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got suspicious when Portland moved from sorted recycling (four bins, I think) to 'combined recycling'. How could it make economic sense to then sort it back out?

The theory given is that it increases recycling by reducing the cognitive load. Whether that is true or not is left as an exercise for the reader.

The additional theory I've heard is that people stink at properly sorting recycling...

...though then you get the other issue, "aspirational recycling", where things that aren't even claimed to be recyclable end up in the bins.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#83

Post by Trasmatta »

bit_logic wrote: post #62
bit_logic wrote: post #44

The whole recycling scam makes me upset. For decades the message was to recycle for the environment. But it was all just shipped to China and then dumped into the oceans. It actually would've been better if it went to landfills, at least then it's safely contained. Another lie was that we're running out of landfill space, there's so much land out there. Like most environmental issues, the focus should've been on prod…

Thinking about this more, wasn't there a time, maybe late 90s early 2000s when the message was that plastic is more environmental than paper? Something like at the supermarket checkout you should pick plastic over paper bags to save rain forest trees? Is my memory wrong or was this a widespread message at the time?

I remember this from that same time period. I was just thinking about that the other day. I don't even recall when the message flipped back over, but it absolutely happened.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#84

Post by nostromo »

Aunche wrote: post #78
bit_logic wrote: post #44

The whole recycling scam makes me upset. For decades the message was to recycle for the environment. But it was all just shipped to China and then dumped into the oceans. It actually would've been better if it went to landfills, at least then it's safely contained. Another lie was that we're running out of landfill space, there's so much land out there. Like most environmental issues, the focus should've been on prod…

> But it was all just shipped to China and then dumped into the oceans. I've heard this a lot of times, but I've never seen any source that claimed the recycled material sent to China gets dumped in the ocean. As I recall, they had paid a small amount of money for it, so it doesn't make sense why they would just throw it away. I agree that landfills are underrated. It's much more effective to build landfills in poor…

In most cases it seems US municipalities paid firms in China to take their recycling, not the other way around.

https://phys.org/news/2018-07-trash-piles-china-door-recycli...

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#85

Post by Aunche »

cwbrandsma wrote: post #68
GhostVII wrote: post #56

I'm not convinced that it's actually a bad thing to dump plastic and paper into a landfill. You just cover it up with dirt and plants every 20 years and build a new one, pretty low impact as long as you have it properly sealed off. Even gets rid of some CO2. Probably better than putting lots of energy into recycling when it isn't actually efficient to do so.

Paper isn’t bad because it breaks down quickly. Plastic has this bad habit of sticking around for 10,000 years (and longer).

Shells and coral also don't decompose and turn into limestone after enough time. Plastic is more toxic, but I can't imagine it being much worse than oil shale when it's compressed. Maybe humanity's legacy in a million years will be a bunch of plastic rocks.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#86

Post by maxerickson »

yborg wrote: post #70
jessaustin wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point, "wondering" about this is willful ignorance. Municipal recycling programs in USA don't recycle much of anything. Valuable materials such as some metals don't make it into the blue bins; those are sold at actual recycling depots. Whatever is in the blue bins, is not recyclable in current economic conditions.

This isn't actually all that new, 25 years ago when I worked at a large Motorola facility, I was always amused when I worked late, which was often, of having the janitorial staff empty my wastebasket into the large bin they pushed around, and then dump the contents of the paper recycling basket into the same bin. It hasn't been economical to recycle paper waste streams in the US maybe ever.

Did you actually do the legwork to connect the actions of the janitor to company policy and the economics of recycling in the area?

Like, I would guess the janitor was just being lazy, and their actions provide little to no information about either the actual policy at the company or economics of recycling where it was located.

The substantial amount of recycled fiber in many products suggests that it isn't particularly uneconomic.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#87

Post by Aunche »

nostromo wrote: post #84
Aunche wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it was all just shipped to China and then dumped into the oceans. I've heard this a lot of times, but I've never seen any source that claimed the recycled material sent to China gets dumped in the ocean. As I recall, they had paid a small amount of money for it, so it doesn't make sense why they would just throw it away. I agree that landfills are underrated. It's much more effective to build landfills in poor…

In most cases it seems US municipalities paid firms in China to take their recycling, not the other way around. https://phys.org/news/2018-07-trash-piles-china-door-recycli...

I don't think that's what the article is saying. They're paying people to take trash because they no longer can sell it to China.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#88

Post by wahern »

gumby wrote: post #49
quercusa wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got suspicious when Portland moved from sorted recycling (four bins, I think) to 'combined recycling'. How could it make economic sense to then sort it back out?

The theory given is that it increases recycling by reducing the cognitive load. Whether that is true or not is left as an exercise for the reader.

Supposedly it could be cost effective when China was paying for plastic. Not that the additional recycling necessarily decreased overall costs, just that single-binning could still be profitable at the collection rates people were used to, and people obviously preferred it. Now that China won't take plastic even if you pay them, I'm sure the financials look different.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#89

Post by [deleted] »

yodsanklai wrote: post #13
schoen wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I took a German course, my textbook had a section something like "was machen Sie für die Umwelt?" ('what do you do for the environment?'), and the first example answer in dialogues was always "Müll trennen" (sorting kinds of trash for recycling). It was amazing what a cultural force this habit seems to have for many Germans. I still remember that one of the textbooks even started an answer with "natürlich…

> It was amazing what a cultural force this habit seems to have for many Germans. I'm not asking maliciously, but I wonder how Germans reconcile their seemingly environmental awareness with their high CO2 emissions and big cars culture.

[deleted]

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#90

Post by eljimmy »

bit_logic wrote: post #62
bit_logic wrote: post #44

The whole recycling scam makes me upset. For decades the message was to recycle for the environment. But it was all just shipped to China and then dumped into the oceans. It actually would've been better if it went to landfills, at least then it's safely contained. Another lie was that we're running out of landfill space, there's so much land out there. Like most environmental issues, the focus should've been on prod…

Thinking about this more, wasn't there a time, maybe late 90s early 2000s when the message was that plastic is more environmental than paper? Something like at the supermarket checkout you should pick plastic over paper bags to save rain forest trees? Is my memory wrong or was this a widespread message at the time?

Yeah I remember this transition from paper to plastic bags. It was the whole "save the trees" movement. Save the trees... and destroy the ocean instead.
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