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Journalists aren’t the enemy of the people. But we’re not your friends either

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Re: Journalists aren’t the enemy of the people. But we’re not your friends either

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what you're saying is you think 1984 is the ideal outcome?

No, what I'm saying is that you're now seeing what happens when it's not 1984. Similar to this whole human microphone thing they did a few years back at Occupy Wall Street. It works great when all the repeaters repeat the message and do so in sync. It doesn't work at all when they all just yell whatever it is they think is best. Then the audience isn't getting the actual message, and many parts of the audience aren't…

> No, what I'm saying is that you're now seeing what happens when it's not 1984.

So 1984 is better than what we have now?

> Then the audience isn't getting the actual message, and many parts of the audience aren't even getting the same message as their neighbors. Some hear "go left", others hear "go right", some get "we should all stay here" and the rest gets some kind of talk about why soup is better than sandwiches. Needless to say that they won't get anything done that way.

People choosing their own filter bubbles is orthogonal to the issue of the media. Just because someone chooses to ignore alternate perspectives, doesn't mean they don't exist.

> Media are reality-mirrors. It's fine if your mirror is a bit dirty, dull or not hung perfectly flat (it's distorting reality, but it's close enough to be useful as a mirror), but if your mirror consists of six different fun house mirrors that are also moving about, it's a shitty mirror and it doesn't work as a mirror.

I don't think _most_ of the current media would be a "fun house mirror". I would argue most of it are mirrors from different perspectives, so you can get a bigger picture by looking in multiple.

Re: Journalists aren’t the enemy of the people. But we’re not your friends either

#82
post #6

I think it's unavoidable. With social media, the incentives simply aren't there to have a media that gives a balanced view of the story anymore. That doesn't sell. Before, it used to be that you'd present side A and side B, without taking any stance. Now, people are starting to conflate neutrality with centrism. Even a 'neutral' news outlet is expected to take some sort of stance, and not to platform extremists. If y…

> Now, you'll have to read two news outlets You already can read multiple outlets for different perspectives. Most people don't. Why would that change?

As the Arthashastra ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24388952 , 2nd or 3rd century) recommends spreading fake news, it naturally also recommends not trusting any intelligence reports that haven't been verified by at least three independent sets of spies.

If one is reliant on news outlets for personal G-2 intelligence work, a similar metric ought to be applied.

Re: Journalists aren’t the enemy of the people. But we’re not your friends either

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you recommend primers, explainers, autobiographies, collection of war stories? Something accessible to laypersons like me? After my own unsuccessful efforts, I started collecting books and articles about lawmaking (legislation). It'd be really great to have similar resources for investigative journalism.

Manufacturing Consent by Noam Chomsky Various works by many of these individuals: https://freedom.press/about/board/

Hmmm.

I guess what I'm hoping to find is a playbook for how to get stories published. Proven effective methods.

I accept everything I've read from Chomsky and others. But I am still no smarter on what to do about it.

For an analogy, Camp Wellstone teaches how to strategize policy work using tools like Power Maps.

Re: Journalists aren’t the enemy of the people. But we’re not your friends either

#84

Journalism is dead. Completely dead. Just look at the Covington High School fiasco. Or look at YouTube for 'The Walls are closing in'. Or look how long the Russiagate narrative dominated the headlines, only to dissolve in a day. Yes, true journalism is dead.

> Or look how long the Russiagate narrative dominated the headlines, only to dissolve in a day.

I've heard that the word "impeachment" was not mentioned once during the Democratic convention. Six months after the trial that we were told over and over again the evidence was so, so, so convincing toward a guilty verdict!

Re: Journalists aren’t the enemy of the people. But we’re not your friends either

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, what I'm saying is that you're now seeing what happens when it's not 1984. Similar to this whole human microphone thing they did a few years back at Occupy Wall Street. It works great when all the repeaters repeat the message and do so in sync. It doesn't work at all when they all just yell whatever it is they think is best. Then the audience isn't getting the actual message, and many parts of the audience aren't…

> No, what I'm saying is that you're now seeing what happens when it's not 1984. So 1984 is better than what we have now? > Then the audience isn't getting the actual message, and many parts of the audience aren't even getting the same message as their neighbors. Some hear "go left", others hear "go right", some get "we should all stay here" and the rest gets some kind of talk about why soup is better than sandwiches…

> So 1984 is better than what we have now?

The dystopian version? No, I don't think so. I'm also not talking about anything else but shared reality. "We've always been at war with Eastasia" is a problem itself, but it's less problematic for the country than half of the country believing we're at war with Eastasia and the other half believing we're at war with Eurasia, and both halves actively waging their wars.

> Just because someone chooses to ignore alternate perspectives, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Of course, but they're not choosing, and they don't exist for them. That's perfectly fine as long as you don't need people from multiple realities to work together, which we kind of need.

Re: Journalists aren’t the enemy of the people. But we’re not your friends either

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every democracy should have a government funded independent news organization, and most do. The major exception being the US. The solution is tried and true but the political will is lacking.

>Government Funded >Independent How are these compatible?

Just as many countries have government funded but independent judiciaries and central banks. It is known Khalesi.

Re: Journalists aren’t the enemy of the people. But we’re not your friends either

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, what I'm saying is that you're now seeing what happens when it's not 1984. So 1984 is better than what we have now? > Then the audience isn't getting the actual message, and many parts of the audience aren't even getting the same message as their neighbors. Some hear "go left", others hear "go right", some get "we should all stay here" and the rest gets some kind of talk about why soup is better than sandwiches…

> So 1984 is better than what we have now? The dystopian version? No, I don't think so. I'm also not talking about anything else but shared reality. "We've always been at war with Eastasia" is a problem itself, but it's less problematic for the country than half of the country believing we're at war with Eastasia and the other half believing we're at war with Eurasia, and both halves actively waging their wars. > Jus…

I want to start by saying that I saw this comment this morning, and have been thinking about it all day. Thank you for commenting this, and sticking around to defend your point.

I do have a couple of comments.

First, a system like you are describing is going to be highly efficient. However, this is not always a good thing. As you increase efficiency, in almost any system you will decrease robustness [0]. While this may be fine in a startup or some software project, for a society, this seems extremely dangerous.

Second, I disagree with the concept of everyone having their own reality. Everyone has their own perception of reality, and may or may not be able to perceive/conceive the reality of someone else's perception, but there is still only one authoritative, physical truth (Well, at least on a scale macro enough for this conversation).

Third, even if you control all of the media (via government for example), you still will not be able to control everyone's perception of reality. See for example China or North Korea, which I believe are the two systems closest to control of the media in the manner you are describing. In China. Despite their total control of the media, there are still citizens who think differently and have a different perception of reality. The only reason that these citizens follow along with the common goal, is because of the threat of force against them or their families if they don't.

For the fourth, I'm going to borrow your war example. If half the country believes in the war in Eurasia and carries it out, and half the country believes in the war in Eastasia and carries it out, are not both sides partially correct? In that case, would they not be better served by seeing the entire truth of the situation, instead of being limited to news sources that serve only one of the stories?

Of course, I do believe that the news should consist of facts, and possibly the interpretation thereof. However, this cannot be trusted to enforcement by government. In addition, since there is no way to stop news organizations from interpreting the facts, would we not be better served by having multiple organizations each provide individual interpretations? That way, we can see multiple possible "realities/perceptions" and chose which we think is the most accurate.

[0] https://taylorpearson.me/interestingtimes/robustness-efficie...

Re: Journalists aren’t the enemy of the people. But we’re not your friends either

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So 1984 is better than what we have now? The dystopian version? No, I don't think so. I'm also not talking about anything else but shared reality. "We've always been at war with Eastasia" is a problem itself, but it's less problematic for the country than half of the country believing we're at war with Eastasia and the other half believing we're at war with Eurasia, and both halves actively waging their wars. > Jus…

I want to start by saying that I saw this comment this morning, and have been thinking about it all day. Thank you for commenting this, and sticking around to defend your point. I do have a couple of comments. First, a system like you are describing is going to be highly efficient. However, this is not always a good thing. As you increase efficiency, in almost any system you will decrease robustness [0]. While this m…

> For the fourth, I'm going to borrow your war example. If half the country believes in the war in Eurasia and carries it out, and half the country believes in the war in Eastasia and carries it out, are not both sides partially correct? In that case, would they not be better served by seeing the entire truth of the situation, instead of being limited to news sources that serve only one of the stories?

Just realized, I dropped half of this.

The other half is that each of these news sources should have different perspectives on these wars. Perhaps one should go over why the war's are a bad idea, and another should go over why they are necessary. However, the only way to make a good choice is to make sure that all information and multiple perspectives are available.

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