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Head of Danish intelligence suspended after whistleblowers hand over information

bbc.com

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Re: Head of Danish intelligence suspended after whistleblowers hand over information

#81

Post by ashtonkem »

throw_this_one wrote: post #25
gostsamo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, it is not their job. If a citizen is accused in a crime, there are other institutions tasked with the investigation. Sometimes this is the counterintelligence, sometimes this is the police. However, breaking the law and actively avoiding legal supervision is a crime which makes them criminals.

Ok so we have to play by the rules to the absolute T. But our adversaries like China/Russia can play dirty and anyway they want, because you say justice is absolute and black and white. Great.

It seems that you’re implying that allowing intelligence agencies unlimited discretion in spying on their own populations is necessary in order to “win” against hostile foreign powers.

This seems like a fairly extraordinary claim that you haven’t backed with either evidence or logic.

Re: Head of Danish intelligence suspended after whistleblowers hand over information

#82

Post by leftyted »

hansjorg wrote: post #9

> According to local media, the Defence Intelligence Service is accused of failing to investigate allegations of espionage in the armed services. It has also been accused of obtaining and passing on information about Danish citizens. The secret intelligence services in your country are not working for you or your safety, and this is not a secret. If you believe so you have not been following the news the last thirty…

Your rhetoric is simplistic and unhelpful. Isn't it funny how little attention is paid to terrorist attacks that don't happen?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_thwarted_Islamic_terro...

https://www.google.com/search?q=ring+wing+terror+plot+foiled...

There's a balance here. To be free, we have to protect ourselves from plots like these, otherwise we would live in fear. At the same time, this protection itself threatens other kinds of freedom, like the freedom from surveillance and interference by our own governments. We have to be cognizant of this balance. We need whistle-blowers, watchdogs, and so on. But we also need state intelligence.

Re: Head of Danish intelligence suspended after whistleblowers hand over information

#83

Post by ArkVark »

contingencies wrote: post #22

Let's start a global program for shifting intelligence funding to schools. Education is a better defense than mass surveillance.

Mass deportations are a simpler solution. Crime and welfare use are disproportionately linked to non-citizens from specific regions and countries.

Re: Head of Danish intelligence suspended after whistleblowers hand over information

#84

Post by guenthert »

triceratops wrote: post #29
Rumperuu wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was surprised to find reading a book called Intelligence in an Insecure World [0] that the general consensus amongst intelligence studies scholars is apparently that there's no empirical evidence for the effectiveness of intelligence work and there probably never will be (although I read the book some time ago so I might be misremembering it). [0] https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Intelligence+in+An+Insecure+Worl...

For those of us who haven't read the book, could you summarize please? Anecdotally that claim seems untrue. Intelligence services have had a tangible effect on world history.[1][2][3] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Enigma 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_Telegram 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Eichmann#Capture

Tangible and in the national interest yes, but not necessarily in the interest of the general public. E.g. the interception of an offer from Siemens (Germany) for a high speed rail system for South Korea intercepted by the French intelligence, see https://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=REPORT&r... (look for TGV)

Re: Head of Danish intelligence suspended after whistleblowers hand over information

#85

Post by Tarq0n »

leftyted wrote: post #82
hansjorg wrote: post #9

> According to local media, the Defence Intelligence Service is accused of failing to investigate allegations of espionage in the armed services. It has also been accused of obtaining and passing on information about Danish citizens. The secret intelligence services in your country are not working for you or your safety, and this is not a secret. If you believe so you have not been following the news the last thirty…

Your rhetoric is simplistic and unhelpful. Isn't it funny how little attention is paid to terrorist attacks that don't happen ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_thwarted_Islamic_terro... https://www.google.com/search?q=ring+wing+terror+plot+foiled... There's a balance here. To be free, we have to protect ourselves from plots like these, otherwise we would live in fear. At the same time, this protection itself th…

Wow, that's a pretty irresponsible list for an encyclopedia. I'd expect a certain standard of evidence for assertions of thwarted plots, but there seems to be little if any presented.

Re: Head of Danish intelligence suspended after whistleblowers hand over information

#86

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

mc32 wrote: post #74
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whereas China/Russia has people tracking dissidents etc. If you think the USA doesn't track dissidents you've been walking around with your eyes and ears shut.

It depends on who is doing the tracking and who the dissidents are. I think most will agree it’s in the interest of the country to track “dissidents” who are bent on inciting “race” wars and so on. Violent anarchists probably also get in that list. Basically any seriously credible threat to the state and its citizens.

Do you believe it is reasonable to draw a distinction between dissident and criminal?

Re: Head of Danish intelligence suspended after whistleblowers hand over information

#87

Post by mc32 »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #86
mc32 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on who is doing the tracking and who the dissidents are. I think most will agree it’s in the interest of the country to track “dissidents” who are bent on inciting “race” wars and so on. Violent anarchists probably also get in that list. Basically any seriously credible threat to the state and its citizens.

Do you believe it is reasonable to draw a distinction between dissident and criminal ?

In many aspects yes but you also don’t want surprises. Most members of those groups haven’t been caught doing criminal activity; does that mean you ignore them because they haven’t struck.

If you hear rumblings about a heist it makes sense to monitor the conspirators even if they have not yet done the heist.

Re: Head of Danish intelligence suspended after whistleblowers hand over information

#88

Post by CompuHacker »

null_deref wrote: post #47
motohagiography wrote: post #4

When I read about western intelligence agencies, one can't help but look at the last decade or so and ask, what was it they said their job was again, specifically?

Can intelligence agencies be the case of "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." (A line from Futurama)?

"Cryptonomicon", a Neal Stephenson novel, delves into the idea that you can mask your intelligence gathering by failing to act on it within some statistical margin. Numerous other ideas are explored.

Re: Head of Danish intelligence suspended after whistleblowers hand over information

#89

Post by dontcarethrow2 »

legerdemain wrote: post #62
jessaustin wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a seriously nutty belief, that you claim to have. This year the increase in our military spending was bigger than Russia's entire military spending. We could cut our military budget in half and still dwarf China's.

Our armed forces are safeguarding Americans from a worldwide foe that could show up anywhere on the globe. To beat the world, we have to outspend the rest of the world combined on defense. Perhaps the greatest danger to American defense is insider threats. If the looming danger from insider threats is stark enough, we will absolutely need to find a way to outspend ourselves on defense.

This safeguarding is likely what is keeping us in danger. We don't have to pretend we are policing the world anymore, enough time has gone by to be able to say it's mainly modern day imperialism. We can work on our defense on this side of the planet without outlining 'the enemy' with outposts and guns pointed at them for 'our defense'.

Re: Head of Danish intelligence suspended after whistleblowers hand over information

#90

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

mc32 wrote: post #87
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe it is reasonable to draw a distinction between dissident and criminal ?

In many aspects yes but you also don’t want surprises. Most members of those groups haven’t been caught doing criminal activity; does that mean you ignore them because they haven’t struck. If you hear rumblings about a heist it makes sense to monitor the conspirators even if they have not yet done the heist.

Conspiracy to commit crime is already a crime.

Being a dissident, not so much.

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