Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever • Hacker News Board

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#81

Post by cuspy » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 6:16 PM UTC

cuspy wrote: post #76

nostromo wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science in America tends to be practiced in universities, and universities in America are no longer open to the free exchange of ideas. While it may look like the public is losing faith in science, it's actually the public losing faith in the platform on which science is practiced: academia. If we want the public to regain faith in scientific findings, we need to fix academia.

I agree to some extent, but the whole "culture war" dimension of this question is far less important than people think. It has much more to do with corruption and broken incentive structures than with the identitarian critiques being pumped out by poorly-funded humanities departments. Until getting so much attention recently, they were at worst a minor check on what really has been an undeserved intellectual hegemony…

After all, the real target of these kinds of articles is obviously the supposedly right-wing extremist "science deniers" who reject the critical theory stuff even more strongly than scientists themselves do.

We need to clean our own house. I can't even keep track of how many brilliant people I personally know who have left academic research. It's really very tragic and our duty as citizens should be to ignore all the petty distractions and focus on doing what needs to be done. If the institutions are lost and beyond reform, we need to work on building new ones that work for us. The current crises could be great opportunities for this.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#82

Post by stallmanite » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 6:22 PM UTC

jfengel wrote: post #49

LordFast wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh, never thought about the math like that. It makes a lot of sense, thanks for sharing. P.S. Before the age of social media, was there not the same level of risk of induced ignorance through traditional media campaigns and propaganda? If not, why not?

Propaganda has always been a problem, and it's hard to quantify if it's actually worse now or merely different. Even if it's merely different, though, it feels like it's the kind of problem that should be solvable. In so many cases people aren't merely misinformed but actively hostile to science in a way that should bite them in the butt sooner rather than later. Surely, one thinks, that should make it possible to re…

I imagine people who are hostile to science would change their attitude after going without electricity and hot water for a couple weeks.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#83

Post by lopmotr » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 6:25 PM UTC

jccc wrote: post #69

vorpalhex wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made the terrible mistake of trying to convince someone out of this insane view only to remember the old quote, "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into". Maybe we should just devote the entirety of a school year to basic rationalism and logic...

It's difficult, tiring, and demoralizing to keep on and on trying to maintain sincere and reasoned argument with seemingly unreasonable and ignorant people. But we really can't give in to that cynicism. These conversations almost always have an audience, and the point isn't just to convince this person in front of you and win, but to keep your side of the argument alive and in front of as many people as possible. And…

Do you also put that much effort into arguing against climate exaggerationism? Claims like the world is on fire, civilization will end or humans will go extinct because of it? People who won't have children because they believe the world will no longer be suitable for human habitation during their lives.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#84

Post by spaetzleesser » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 6:33 PM UTC

vorpalhex wrote: post #22

mod wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. In my lifetime I have never known the average person to be engaged, nor informed. I think they're mostly mis-informed for the past 10+ years. People just believe whatever outlandish title comes across their facebook feed. I had about 12 people ask me if I heard the news--that wayfair was selling missing children on their website, disguised as fancy cabinets. It took me about 12 seconds to find out it was a t…

I made the terrible mistake of trying to convince someone out of this insane view only to remember the old quote, "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into". Maybe we should just devote the entirety of a school year to basic rationalism and logic...

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into".

Very good quote. It took me decades to comprehend that a lot of people don’t even try to understand things but go with whatever sounds right and makes them feel good. Especially when it comes to political issues I don’t think I have ever heard somebody say “oh yes, this convinces me to change my stance.”. People stick to their beliefs as long as possible. I only have seen people change their minds over years.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#85

Post by nitwit005 » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 6:35 PM UTC

arotical wrote: post #2

I've seen the term 'evidence-based policy' pop up all over the place. I take issue with people who use this phrase because most of the time their definition of evidence is not very well developed, and when the evidence is something they don't like they start to stretch their definition of evidence so they can dismiss implementing a certain policy. If evidence is only restricted to, and dictated by, academic papers, y…

It depends how strictly you take the idea. Often people just want some sort of demonstration that people at least looked into things and thought about the alternatives.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#86

Post by renewiltord » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 6:37 PM UTC

There's science and then there's the theatre of science and the fans of the theatre of science will attempt to browbeat you into ignoring the science because they are concerned with the continued operation of the theatre.

So, for instance, when the CDC recommended no mask usage and all the conformist fans of the theatre of science started pulling their shit, the ones who follow the science ignored them.

Government scientific institutions have reputations that are shot through with these "for the greater good" lies. Science is important, but no one is going to listen to the Scientific Theatre any more.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#87

Post by Consultant32452 » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 6:37 PM UTC

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #68

Science is important. Science is great. I love science. Let's just be extremely careful when trying to apply the latest scientific achievements in our day to day lives. Phlogiston theory of 17th century was wrong. Race theory of 18th century was wrong. Semmelweis was laughed at in 19th century. And lobotomies were perfectly scientific for treating depressed patients for most of 20th century. I doubt 21st century's sc…

One interesting thing to try to find is... during approximately what decade did "modern medicine" become a net benefit to health and longevity? The most common answers I've seen vary from the 1950s to we're not even 100% sure it's a net benefit now.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#88

Post by vadansky » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 6:37 PM UTC

Press2forEN wrote: post #6

> An engaged and well-informed public has always been the foundation of our democracy Is there even a shred of scientific evidence to support this hypothesis? I see it in print so often that it appears to be a axiom that is considered so correct as to be unquestionable.

In "Amusing Ourselves to Death" they made the point that Americans used to be much better read, and would attend lectures as a past time. They said Presidential Candidates would travel the country and in-depth structured debates that went on for hours and would attract a huge mass of people. Never really bothered to confirm it but the idea sounded interesting.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#89

Post by achillesheels » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 6:43 PM UTC

ptero wrote: post #78

manux wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> scientists who can be bought off for nothing and blackmailed easily. Bought off by who? I presume the "elite families" you mention. So either way we are ruled by the wealthy in this model. There are other options of course and I assume you would agree, I just wanted to point out my surprise at this false dichotomy (that's not even a dichotomy since they're mostly the same scenario). I also agree 100% that STEM prof…

I heard of tailoring findings to the preferences of the grant giver (advocate a wrong view and kiss your grant good-bye). This is very worrisome as a lot of experimental science labs are so grant dependent. I actually think this is partly a self-inflicted wound -- a large fraction of major grant givers want truth and can stand findings that go against their beliefs, but given the heavy dependence of labs on grants th…

Hence the reason science has always been an aristocratic pursuit. Georg Feuerbach demonstrates this point with the thought-provoking claim that only a polytheistic tradition (such as Athens) can breed a love of natural beauty which obligates a love of knowing its ways.

But it is principally a love of Nature (and it’s universals) and not a love of wealth which moves the civilization higher. Galileo, Descartes, Newton had pretensions but immortal ones.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#90

Post by exolymph » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 6:48 PM UTC

manux wrote: post #59

cuspy wrote: post #55

Given the track record of institutional science and the ever-growing list of regulatory failures, moral failures and outright abuses pushed in the guise of scientific expertise, why do so many people seem to think that simply doubling down and bullying the general population into compliance with expert consensus will ever work? What if institutional science in the US has a legitimacy crisis because it has failed to p…

> scientists who can be bought off for nothing and blackmailed easily. Bought off by who? I presume the "elite families" you mention. So either way we are ruled by the wealthy in this model. There are other options of course and I assume you would agree, I just wanted to point out my surprise at this false dichotomy (that's not even a dichotomy since they're mostly the same scenario). I also agree 100% that STEM prof…

How 'bout the Chinese government?