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We Need a Yelp for Doctoral Programs

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Re: We Need a Yelp for Doctoral Programs

#81

Post by mattkrause »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #7

No. We don't need a consumer review website, because PhD students (I am one) are not the consumers of doctoral programs. We're the workers. We need a union. If we're in a good program, we're receiving valuable training both in our coursework (or before PhD in an MS/MA if your country does it that way) and in our research work. Ideally, we're building up a network of collaborations and acquaintances in the scientific…

A union might be part of the solution, but I doubt it can be all of it.

Collective bargaining could certainly help negotiate stipends and (lack of) benefits. Standardized degree requirements and access to funding could be agreed upon. Working conditions, especially related to non-research duties like teaching, could be on the table as well. These are certainly a source of misery for some PhD students in some fields.

However, I’m not seeing how a union could rein in an individual’s advisor, which is often the major source of stress. A union could certainly set working hours, but that will just move the debate to “expected productivity/quality per hour.” Moreover, a lot of things that are essential to building an academic career are technically optional. A union cannot force someone to write a positive recommendation letter, expand their scientific network, or anything like that.

Re: We Need a Yelp for Doctoral Programs

#82

Post by gowld »

tharne wrote: post #75
jseliger wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many disciplines, too, the answer is "don't go to any program." Most humanities fields, for example, have numerous essays written about why doing grad school in them is a poor life choice, like my contribution: https://jakeseliger.com/2012/05/22/what-you-should-know-befo... . One could say the same of most social sciences.

I was at a social event and got to talking with a professor at an Ivy League school. He had a really insightful take on this. He said that the only fair way to present a doctoral program to prospective students is to compare it to trying to become a rockstar. Every day tons of people form garage bands and have dreams of becoming rock stars. But...they do so knowing they almost certainly won't make it. This professor…

A PhD program is not a trade school. It was originally designed for the intellectually inclined aristocracy to put their minds to good use. If you understand that, you are fine.

Re: We Need a Yelp for Doctoral Programs

#83

Post by gowld »

tvanantwerp wrote: post #78
abakker wrote: post #29

We barely need a Yelp for restaurants. I think it is time for the internet to acknowledge that the pointless drivel in star rating systems is just not helping anyone. If you’re going to start a system for rating things, give it more nuance and value.

My wife and I have learned the hard way: figure out first if the people leaving reviews value what you value, then look at the number of stars.

The stats are nearly completely meaningless. Once you've read the review, the stars say nothing relevant to you.

Re: We Need a Yelp for Doctoral Programs

#84

Post by abakker »

fastball wrote: post #51
abakker wrote: post #29

We barely need a Yelp for restaurants. I think it is time for the internet to acknowledge that the pointless drivel in star rating systems is just not helping anyone. If you’re going to start a system for rating things, give it more nuance and value.

I actually have a plan for this! I want to build a ratings website where you rate things in the same way they generally structure psychological tests, by responding to affirmative statements with something between "strongly agree" and "strongly disagree". As an example, if you were rating films, questions could be: "This film was enjoyable." "This film had an engaging plot." "The acting was believable / appropriate f…

I like this - in general, I’m a fan of this (my job is survey research). There are many different approaches to getting better results than most reviews get. Personally, I’d love to see a max-diff approach to reviews.

Re: We Need a Yelp for Doctoral Programs

#85

Post by eastbayjake »

jseliger wrote: post #40
ISL wrote: post #19

Good luck getting honest reviews. Graduates and recent post-docs are dependent upon good letters of recommendation from their advisors for perhaps a decade after leaving their research groups. The truly disillusioned won't mind complaining, but those with even constructive criticism will feel constrained in their ability to speak out and be specific. The graduate-student experience is deeply advisor-specific. Profess…

In many disciplines, too, the answer is "don't go to any program." Most humanities fields, for example, have numerous essays written about why doing grad school in them is a poor life choice, like my contribution: https://jakeseliger.com/2012/05/22/what-you-should-know-befo... . One could say the same of most social sciences.

A classic of this genre from 2011: https://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2011/08/29/voices-of-the-defe...

Re: We Need a Yelp for Doctoral Programs

#86

Post by M5x7wI3CmbEem10 »

jseliger wrote: post #40
ISL wrote: post #19

Good luck getting honest reviews. Graduates and recent post-docs are dependent upon good letters of recommendation from their advisors for perhaps a decade after leaving their research groups. The truly disillusioned won't mind complaining, but those with even constructive criticism will feel constrained in their ability to speak out and be specific. The graduate-student experience is deeply advisor-specific. Profess…

In many disciplines, too, the answer is "don't go to any program." Most humanities fields, for example, have numerous essays written about why doing grad school in them is a poor life choice, like my contribution: https://jakeseliger.com/2012/05/22/what-you-should-know-befo... . One could say the same of most social sciences.

if you don’t mind the financial aspect, would it be okay to do a PhD for enjoyment?

I’m thinking someone could work at Facebook over the summers while studying because they take PhDs

Re: We Need a Yelp for Doctoral Programs

#87

Post by brodo »

As someone who dropped out of a PhD program: the most important metric is the drop out rate for the research group you are in. If you can get it for your thesis advisor, it's even better. There are people who see all graduate students just as cheep, highly motivated labor for boosting their academic output. I had to put my advisor on papers who he had never read and I know someone who had to "ghost write" for her professor. Academia is a status game, and giving someone else credit for your work won't get you anywhere.

Re: We Need a Yelp for Doctoral Programs

#88

Post by abnry »

tharne wrote: post #75
jseliger wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many disciplines, too, the answer is "don't go to any program." Most humanities fields, for example, have numerous essays written about why doing grad school in them is a poor life choice, like my contribution: https://jakeseliger.com/2012/05/22/what-you-should-know-befo... . One could say the same of most social sciences.

I was at a social event and got to talking with a professor at an Ivy League school. He had a really insightful take on this. He said that the only fair way to present a doctoral program to prospective students is to compare it to trying to become a rockstar. Every day tons of people form garage bands and have dreams of becoming rock stars. But...they do so knowing they almost certainly won't make it. This professor…

I like this. The analogy I always use is trying to be a major league baseball player, because I think the farm system captures the dynamics of the grad student component of academia.

Re: We Need a Yelp for Doctoral Programs

#89

Post by abnry »

toxik wrote: post #66
AndyMcConachie wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really any better outside of the humanities. Maybe the prospects are slightly better, but grad school is still a crappy choice. I got a bachelors in Computer Science and then worked for 15 years before going back and getting a masters. While there I was asked to work for free on numerous occasions, we can call if different things, but that's how I saw it. Already knowing the value of my labour I finished my…

Counter anecdata: I am taking a CS doctorate degree, and have never been asked to work for free, and never been cheated out of course time to work on what the professor thinks is interesting.

I think the lab-heavy (i.e. non-digital) programs have this problem more. When I was in grad school, I knew plenty of chemistry students who were expected to work 6 days a week.

Re: We Need a Yelp for Doctoral Programs

#90

Post by fastball »

abakker wrote: post #84
fastball wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually have a plan for this! I want to build a ratings website where you rate things in the same way they generally structure psychological tests, by responding to affirmative statements with something between "strongly agree" and "strongly disagree". As an example, if you were rating films, questions could be: "This film was enjoyable." "This film had an engaging plot." "The acting was believable / appropriate f…

I like this - in general, I’m a fan of this (my job is survey research). There are many different approaches to getting better results than most reviews get. Personally, I’d love to see a max-diff approach to reviews.

Feel free to steal the idea! I'm a bit busy building out another idea I had haha.
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