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One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

bbc.com

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Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#81
post #37

This is enraging. Identity theft in the United States can be a headache, sure, but in most cases the financial institutions are the ones taking the brunt of the damage, and even that is probably covered by some sort of insurance scheme. This woman had her entire life stripped away from her, not to mention making her doubt her own abilities by implying she “failed” the exam. How do these people live with themselves, e…

The western sense of morality didn’t stop the admissions scandals to all top western universities like Harvard Stanford and so on. Chinese universities as far as I know don’t have things like institutionalized legacy admissions. I’d like people to reconsider the view that western societies are somehow inherently purer or less corrupt. Often it takes different forms. This can be seen in the way sanctions are imposed f…

Just as many Chinese citizens are proud of their country and culture, there are lots of people in the US who are proud of their country and culture. Are there lots of hypocrites in the United States? Yes. Are there lots of naive people? I mean people still love Trump now while the rest of the world laughs at us. The people in both societies are flawed so let's put that aside.

If we look at both systems (and not as individuals), the US as a whole makes an attempt to do what's right and the system attempts to correct bad behavior. The original founders tried to prevent any one person from usurping power through checks and balances. As Trump tries to upend the country, the Supreme Court restricts what he can do but also tries to ensure the presidency retains power against the legislative branch. Trump has very little power against the Supreme Court and his Supreme Court appointees have voted against him several times already.

Citizens in United States can take to the street to protest against change. Does it always work? Most of the time no. But occasionally, with George Floyd's case, some changes are happening. When individual citizens has their rights taken away, it is possible to sue the government. When this is taken to the Supreme Court and the citizen wins, change happens.

These things will not necessarily get us to a better place but the mechanism for the people to make the change is enshrined in the constitution. Fortunately, this mechanism does eventually guide us to the right place. So far.

As far as I can tell, this kind of corrective behavior does not work in countries like Russia, China and North Korea. It's citizens cannot demand change. What these countries do have is a level of efficiency that democracies will never match. I am envious of this. I am jealous of China's high speed rails and it's ability to erect large cities and hospitals in a matter of months and days.

No doubt United States is in a bad place right now. It has lost its leadership status in the world, it's citizens are sick and dying with a virus that the rest of the world has controlled, and citizens are demanding to not be murdered by their police. However, Trump will most likely be voted out in the fall. Congress is slowly passing laws for better police reform. Counties and states who do not agree with the President covid policies can work against the President's demands to better protect their citizens. Yes there will be problems. Some bad actors will get away with unethical and immoral behaviors. However, the system will attempt to correct the problem. This is why Western democracy is regarded higher than dictatorships in countries like Russia, China and North Korea. The system in United States will give its citizens a better chance to weather the storm than a country with dictatorship.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The western sense of morality didn’t stop the admissions scandals to all top western universities like Harvard Stanford and so on. Chinese universities as far as I know don’t have things like institutionalized legacy admissions. I’d like people to reconsider the view that western societies are somehow inherently purer or less corrupt. Often it takes different forms. This can be seen in the way sanctions are imposed f…

Yep I’m sure that their universities have no concept of letting in children of a major donor or political figure with influence.

Chinese universities do have this concept -- certain students are marked VIP, so that professors will know.

But the concept of granting admission based on such status, as opposed to extending special treatment to an admitted student, is very much muted.

There are ways of getting in to a university without passing the gaokao threshold that would ordinarily be required. But those generally involve receiving a point boost that the college has the official discretion to offer, or doing well on an alternative test -- someone scoring 303 out of 750 would obviously not pass a lower discretionary threshold either.

Note that when "officials in Shandong say new processes are now in place to make sure such incidents will not happen again", they are correct -- it's already possible to look up both your gaokao score (this girl's score wasn't falsified; rather, her identity was stolen) and the 分数线 that applied to you when you applied to a school. The problem would be instantly detected[1] by anyone who felt bitter about what happened -- and this is quite likely, since you have a strong idea of what your gaokao score will be before you actually take the test. (You have to, because you apply to colleges before you get your official result.)

[1] Well, detected with probably a one-year lag.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#83

I'm curious as to how these tests compare to the US SAT. You can take the SAT multiple times and submit your best attempt. In this story, the test seems one and done. You get 1 attempt and you either get in, or you don't. Also reminds me of the story from India like 1 or 2 years ago where a test had faulty answers and people thought they didn't get into university because of that

These exams differ from SAT in three major ways. First, they are offered once a year. Didn't do as well as you hope? Try again next year. Second, the material is significantly harder. Take math as an example. The exam questions are a lot closer to AMC/AIME than to SAT. In fact, suppose language is not a problem, many Chinese middle schooler would do pretty well on SAT's math section. Also you are not allowed any calc…

Here in Norway, we don't have any entrance exams - your HS grades are the only thing that counts - along with some extra points for age, military service, etc.

For the most prestigious University majors, this results in two sets of students: Those that had good enough grades to get in on their first try, straight out of school - or those that simply have to wait X number of years, until they've re-taken enough classes, gained enough age points, and what not.

One roomie of me during college had spent like 5 years doing all that, before finally getting accepted to medical studies. It's insane.

But still, with all that, I really feel bad for the students in China / India / Singapore / etc. where your future pretty much rests on one exam, and that's that.

At least here in the west, especially richer northern counties, people can "screw around" for years trying to find their way, without it hurting them too much - financially, or professionally.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#84
post #7
post #2

This story reminds me of the stories that were common on my country of origin in South America. We had free high level education, but there was a system rigged to preserve nepotism. I was in Russia for the World Cup in 2018 and heard the same crap.

The US has evolved a similar rigging for our privileged. We supply various obscure sports accolades that can be purchased for the children of wealthy families to obtain admission to our leading universities. Unfortunately our schemes have also been exposed and a number of people are being prosecuted. So for the moment one must resort to investing in rather costly facility construction or similar expansion projects wh…

IMHO the situation of the USA is worlds apart from what I experienced as a kid in South America. The systemic corruption is normalized in Latin America. I remember when my dad bought a car that looked nice and we considered trading it because transit cops would stop us every now and then to get a tip from us. If we didn't agree to tip, we could potentially be arrested and paying your way out of the commissary was more expensive. The privileged had government printed plates that stopped cops messing with the occupants of the car.

I came to the USA to have the future I couldn't have back there, and I call bullshit on your comparison. I didn't go to an ivy league school, I went to a public school, and today I make hiring decisions over engineering candidates with Ivy League school backgrounds. That type of social mobility is a fantasy in South America and the other countries you are trying to compare with the USA.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep I’m sure that their universities have no concept of letting in children of a major donor or political figure with influence.

Chinese universities do have this concept -- certain students are marked VIP, so that professors will know. But the concept of granting admission based on such status, as opposed to extending special treatment to an admitted student, is very much muted. There are ways of getting in to a university without passing the gaokao threshold that would ordinarily be required. But those generally involve receiving a point boo…

Official VIP students... wow that’s horrifyingly corrupt. Clearly admissions is also letting things slide, just with less official backing as fewer people need to be involved.

In the US, collages have more or less rigorous programs rather than simply letting people slide through.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#86
post #9

The unstated assumption in this article is that only college graduates deserve to have a decent life.

I don't think "deserve" is the best word to use, but I can absolutely see how it's a deciding factor whether you get to live a comfortable and secure life, vs pretty much working to survive.

But that's not really unique to China. One can go to the more expensive cities in the western world, and take a look at how the working classes are just surviving. Zero upward mobility, once you're trapped in those jobs - from a professional point of view.

I've had the great displeasure of working minimum wage dead-end jobs, in a major city, and it was the most stressing thing of my life. Poor pay, ever-increasing rents and general living costs, zero job security, close to no prospects of owning your own apartment or home.

You don't really feel like a permanent resident. Just a transient passing through, and when the jig us up, you're out.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#87
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese universities do have this concept -- certain students are marked VIP, so that professors will know. But the concept of granting admission based on such status, as opposed to extending special treatment to an admitted student, is very much muted. There are ways of getting in to a university without passing the gaokao threshold that would ordinarily be required. But those generally involve receiving a point boo…

Official VIP students... wow that’s horrifyingly corrupt. Clearly admissions is also letting things slide, just with less official backing as fewer people need to be involved. In the US, collages have more or less rigorous programs rather than simply letting people slide through.

> Official VIP students... wow that’s horrifyingly corrupt. Clearly admissions is also letting things slide, just with less official backing.

I do not think your conclusion follows from your premise.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#88
post #59
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ap testing is a lot shorter, clearly not as comprehensive, and graded very leniently in comparison

How do you know this? Many posters here commenting authoritatively about two educational systems...

What do you take issue with? The first two are clearly factual. AP tests are limited to a single subject and are 2-3 hours in length.

My comment on grading is also pretty objective, imo. Your AP score is 1-5. And the curve is crazy; when I took AP Physics C E&M I would have gotten a 5 whether I scored 60% or 100%. When reported, though, nobody will know what percentage of the points you scored. OTOH gaokao scores are reported in full.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#89
I think this is a good opportunity to discuss on what would be the ideal process for selecting students for higher education.

China's system is probably the fairer one compared to US. I don't know the system at Europe India, or any other nations ranked high in intellectual competitiveness. Would be interested in learning the details.

Additionally, conventional higher education is mostly obsolete. Technically, one absolutely can access the same quality education outside of a typical 4 year university. That is a sea-level change compared to that in 10-20 years ago.

Prominent institutions today primarily serve as social selection process to find the compatible individuals and assimilate them into the elite class.

My observations identify that as obvious in US. China also have similar setup in Tsinghua and Beijing university. Especially since Hu Jintao's presidency, while the majority of the standing committee of CCP Politburo are from these 2 institutions. And the culture aura attached to them is also purposefully cultivated by CCP and the government.

Now, what is the proper mechanism to prevent the small fraction of elite institutions from inbreeding, and make sure a diverse and representative student body be admitted into these institutions. For example, it was a huge problem in China that the students into the better higher education institutions have 20%.

This type of inequality is the most problematic.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#90
post #66
post #21

What's nuts about this how tons of people from all levels of government/society participated in this conspiracy. It says a lot about the general attitude of Chinese people. (I'm chinese, btw)

I suspect the more corrupt the government the population of officials and their corruption level goes hand in hand. But beyond that I'm not sure it has much to do with society as a whole.

It's a society/cultural/behavioral thing.

In China they have a saying: 能骗就骗.

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