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Red Hat to remove contentious terms like master and slave from its source code

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Re: Red Hat to remove contentious terms like master and slave from its source code

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you should read the perspective of why a black programmer finds it offensive and took action about it: https://www.cnet.com/news/twitter-engineers-replace-racially... Also, this isn't a "New" issue/ BLM issue, while it's been sped up by BLM, companies have been moving this way for some time. Python dropped Master/ Slave 2 years ago, before it was trendy.

I'm not against it if thats how I came off, I apologise if it sounded like that. I'm more against the corporate PR campaigns that drown out real material change for black individuals that those like Martin Luther King with the Poor People Campaign fought for. It happens over and over and I'm sick of seeing nothing actually change in society except for 15 minutes of corporate feel good time. Those ideas, police & pris…

It is a small quality of life improvement for a small number of black people in the programming community. Nothing more, nothing less.

This isn't drowning out anything, nor does it alleviate the need for real change in the places where it's needed most.

If a company does the right thing for the wrong reasons, that doesn't make it wrong.

Re: Red Hat to remove contentious terms like master and slave from its source code

#82
post #67

This is a huge challenge for HN: can we treat this as the minor issue it is, and discuss it patiently and kindly?

> can we treat this as the minor issue it is Is it actually an issue at all?

I don't think so, but some of the other comments here (including the top one when I commented originally) felt it was very very important and anyone not supporting immediate action was a racist...

Re: Red Hat to remove contentious terms like master and slave from its source code

#83
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This one kind of bothers me. Dark and light are concepts from long before written history and have nothing to do with humans even. Predators and bad things hunt in the dark, evil, etc. There's really no benefit to meaningless conflations of human social problems with other things. I agree with the other comment about assuaging white guilt; it doesn't help someone get hired, talk to the police, or find housing. Those…

> I agree with the other comment about assuaging white guilt; it doesn't help someone get hired, talk to the police, or find housing. You make it sound like this is a bunch of white people unilaterally doing something so they feel better. As if there are no black programmers asking for this change. https://www.cnet.com/news/twitter-engineers-replace-racially... The whole point of this effort is to make the workplace…

Yes, that's a good point about needing to create a welcoming workplace, so maybe this discussion is more of a spectrum where we need to decide where the line is?

Guidance would help instead of everybody guessing or corps randomly scrubbing things until the bad PR goes away.

Re: Red Hat to remove contentious terms like master and slave from its source code

#84
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please provide a link to support your assertion that "the BLM core" is giving "significant push back".

I think maybe a better question/support would be evidence that anybody besides corporate diversity teams have said this is a problem. To be clear- I also think the terms are problematic and my company is also pushing for it. But I think it's worth asking whether we're speaking over actual black people. It does give off pretty heavy white guilt vibes. Edit: I think a good example of this is the fact that my company is…

There is plenty of evidence that people other than those on corporate diversity teams have said this is a problem, going back to at least 2003 with https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/masterslave/ (emphasis mine):

> To verify that this [request 'that equipment vendors avoid using the industry term “Master/Slave” in product descriptions and labeling'] wasn’t a hoax or an internal joke which mistakenly escaped to the wider world of the Internet, we called the Purchasing and Contract Services division for the County of Los Angeles, and they informed us that yes, they did issue this message, and yes, it was meant seriously. In May 2003, a black employee of the county’s Probation Department filed a discrimination complaint with the Office of Affirmative Action Compliance after spotting “master” and “slave” labels on a videotape machine, whereupon the Internal Services Department was obligated to issue notification requesting that vendors refrain from using the master/slave terminology.

So yes, at least one. (FWIW, I think claims of "white guilt" give off a pretty heavy attempt at encouraging white silence.)

Just looking at HN you'll see other evidence, like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7806066 :

> Have you ever taught African-American kids about database replication? I'm guessing "no", because the master/slave terminology actively interferes with the learning environment — more so than adopting this less common terminology would.

Or in this HN comment from two years ago, at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17930085 :

> A few years ago I was in a meeting talking about database options, hitherto I had used "master/slave" to describe this database topology. In that meeting was an African American co-worker ("Frank") and as the words left my mouth I realized that completely irrespective of my intent I brought into the room the spectre of times past. I've no idea how Frank felt about it - but all of a sudden I had lost all ability to continue my point. I paused and said something that amounted to: "you know,... that phrase is fucked up - let's not use it - what words should we use?" and Frank suggested we look at what terms Amazon uses; they used "source and read replica" and that's what we went with. I've never regretted recoding my use of words on that one.

Or another from 8 years ago, at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4617174 :

> A coworker and I were de-duping records in a database. One of us said while pairing on the script "well, every slave needs a master."

> An african american woman in the office turned to us and said "maybe it's the master who needs the slave?"

> She wasn't really offend or anything and she said it with a sincere smile. She was just calling out our idiotic computer lingo for what it was.

> After apologizing feeling like complete idiots we quickly changed our terminology both in words and in the script to parent/child.

Or from 7 years ago, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5423626 referenced Matthew Haughey/mathowie's comment at https://www.metafilter.com/126184/Furore-over-sexism-being-c... :

> All this talk about forking being offensive-or-no reminds me of a few years ago when someone pointed out to me that the whole hard drive relationship talk in IT circles of "Master" and "Slave" drives was offensive to them, being that they were black.

If you can't get the small problems fixed, can you really fix the large ones? What are the relevant core problems in your company which this distracts from, who is arguing that this change is something other than a no-brainer change, and what is their reason?

Re: Red Hat to remove contentious terms like master and slave from its source code

#85
post #28

I worked for redhat in a past life and I recall having to do this for documentation back in 2003-2004 to comply with a California law[0] regarding vendors to the government. It's been a long time but I'm pretty sure I remember changing "master/slave" to "primary/secondary" in a bunch of bind docs. 0. (this might be it) https://edition.cnn.com/2003/TECH/ptech/11/26/master.term.re...

I feel as though primary/secondary doesn't define the relationship properly. I, for one, think this is all getting ridiculous now.

The chosen terms don't define the relationship. The documentation defines the terms in the given context, including their relationship.

Re: Red Hat to remove contentious terms like master and slave from its source code

#86
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you do that when you have an established word an entire industry understands? Words only have the meaning we convey to them and as soon as you put more words in the mix that dilutes any clarity. We're back to the xkcd on standards.

Random thought: Who will adopt faster, the younger programers, or older?

In my day we'd feed the Spinning Jenny punch cards all day long.

We should also stop using ROBOT which means "forced labor" (slave) in Czech.

Re: Red Hat to remove contentious terms like master and slave from its source code

#87

Wow, this community is terrible. It's good to see that the people who matter are more advanced: Wikipedia is also (finally) doing this, as I noticed today. And so is Github. It's a renaming of mostly internal identifiers, a somewhat minor change for those implementing it, and a complete non-issue for anyone else. It doesn't matter if you are offended by the terms or not. Your opinion is somewhat irrelevant for once.…

> The logic of why people may feel offended by master/slave or white/blacklist is trivially obvious. One can have doubts about the intensity of it, but not the basic mechanism.

My companies black systems architect just finished a whitelist feature and delivered it this morning. Should I, as a dutiful white frontend dev, inform him:

a) that this was in fact a racist decision and he may be a racist or rationally motivated.

b) that he's been oppressed by the whiteman for so long that he doesn't even know how racist this is, thus awakening his mind to the countless micro-aggressions around him

c) do nothing, because this is stupid virtue signaling by marketing teams fueled by white guilt ridding the wave of a woke-movement that, at worse, will get them a neutral "whatever" response or some scoffs, and at best, a pat on the shoulder from the woke twitter-verse?

Please let me know of your selection by reply and I will carry out the appropriate action and report back.

Re: Red Hat to remove contentious terms like master and slave from its source code

#88
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I agree with the other comment about assuaging white guilt; it doesn't help someone get hired, talk to the police, or find housing. You make it sound like this is a bunch of white people unilaterally doing something so they feel better. As if there are no black programmers asking for this change. https://www.cnet.com/news/twitter-engineers-replace-racially... The whole point of this effort is to make the workplace…

Yes, that's a good point about needing to create a welcoming workplace, so maybe this discussion is more of a spectrum where we need to decide where the line is? Guidance would help instead of everybody guessing or corps randomly scrubbing things until the bad PR goes away.

> Guidance would help instead of everybody guessing or corps randomly scrubbing things until the bad PR goes away.

I'm having trouble seeing an issue black developers have been raising for over a decade being called "Randomly Scrubbing". It's been a known pain point for some time.

Re: Red Hat to remove contentious terms like master and slave from its source code

#89
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sure an at-risk youth, when pulled over by two white police officers, is grateful that a bunch of highly paid programmers aren't subjected to politically incorrect variable names. Why would this affect anyone getting pulled over by the police? Neither the police, nor the motorist are going to be looking over source code. This is 100% about black developers. Have you bothered asking black developers how they fee…

> Have you bothered asking black developers how they feel about this? Insanity. Take a step back from being American for a sec. White folk were sent to Australian labor camps for stealing a loaf of bread. Slaves were not only Black. Are Egyptians tearing down their pyramids? No. It's nonsensical. Real racists do exist, but meanings evolve. Sinister no longer means left-handed.

> Slaves were not only Black.

Good point. Slavery is terrible in all its forms. All the more reason this should be addressed.

Re: Red Hat to remove contentious terms like master and slave from its source code

#90
I’d ask every white person who says they don’t like these changes because they're shallow/pandering/not as good as real antiracist action to take a step back and ask yourself if that’s the real reason you dislike this change.

Is it possible you actually had a knee-jerk reaction to PC-ness and are retroactively justifying it with logic?

I think it’s common for people (maybe especially engineering types?) to have an emotional reaction to something and find a logical reason for that emotion instead of admitting that maybe they were just being reactionary in the moment.

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