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Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

theguardian.com

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Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#81
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

interesting, but Russians afaik don't get schooled overseas too much, like so many Chinese students spend years at overseas uni's, you'd think some of it would seep in. If not I'm very disappointed with the universities. Edit: a world without dissent seems so ... pointless

I live in a country where political affiliation has become so central to personal identity, and so bound up in our perception of "good" vs. "bad" morality, that you can't take a dissenting position on anything - not even for fear of government censure, at this point, but for fear of social censure. It's not even fear of current social censure - it's become clear with people willing to dig up old transgressions that y…

I think I live in a different country from you, though there is some of that here to, but yes democracy is going through a rough patch in spots, but it's better than the alternatives imho, you need a system that allows different points of view, there are a lot of them, and thats the only way things will improve, sure there is one system that is good at making factories and widgets, but its a pretty empty life imho.

There was a series of books I read many years ago - The Dorsai by Gordon R Dickson, in that humanity split off into a bunch of extremists and we all flew off to our own planets, religious extremists, scientists, soldiers etc, I keep thinking of that more lately, maybe we'll just have to wait for Musk, Bezos and Branson to build some more ships.

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#82
post #57
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see it as an order of magnitude less dangerous than censorship at the library level.

Here is an extensive list of frequently challenged and banned books http://www.ala.org/advocacy/bbooks/frequentlychallengedbooks... Some school libraries appear to be being very active on banning certain books.

Bigoted parents challenging a book in a school library is not comparable to a state using law to intimidate public libraries into removing books.

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#84
post #41

Two things are true at the same time: - Hong Kong's rule of law has disappeared; - The books in question are written by pretty radical young revolutionaries. Personally I am more concerned that libraries in Hong Kong seem to keep less and less books in the local version of Chinese and more books written in Simplified Chinese used in Mainland China. It's like if you are in California and suddenly half of the books in…

It's odd that you include Spanish since until recently the same argument was made about half the books in the library being in Spanish instead of English.

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#85
post #37

How is it that many Chinese students are schooled in the west, and have access to all these books and thoughts, but then they don't exist when they go back home. There must be some significant cognitive dissonance between the two situations. I don't see how they can keep a lid on this long term.

I imagine the effects will take some time to filter through, but yeah, a generation of the Chinese elite being schooled in the west seems likely to have a pretty profound impact. I suppose this is part of the west's gambit in being so open to international students generally. On the other hand, the Chinese community at universities in my city includes many who don't speak English or try to interact with the locals. T…

The British and German elite also intermingled because the world wars, it's not enough.

Basically, if the masses don't know about the either country, and the elites are tempted by power (it's nicer to make the propaganda than receive it, plus their economic prospects are better in China) and knowing they don't have to fight in wars themselves, it's not good enough.

Also, as much as I truly believe in the west's values of free speech and democracy, one needs to understand the fundamental pessimism and decline of the US vs the optimism and ascension of China. Oh, and the use US absolutely could not win a non-nuclear war against China, for example.

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#86
post #3

Isn't it surprising that Microsoft, Apple, Google, Netflix, Blizzard and others don't express their deep regret and support the people of Hong Kong? If they really stood by their values they would act in the same way as they did by supporting the BLM movement. It's just another proof that they only did that to get press coverage for being "benevolent" and not because they genuinely supported the people. Disgraceful.

You’re asking them to support “cafeteria capitalism”

Supporting BLM or LGBTQ+ Equality costs them nothing, even if you go beyond a PR gesture. You can put Black and LGBTQ people on your board and in corporate leadership positions and it will not have it negatively impact your bottom line in any measurable way. Maybe equalizing salaries would impact the bottom line but not by a significant amount.

However, by (rightly) calling out Chinas numerous human rights abuses you risk being shut out from China. That directly impacts your bottom line the way putting a Black Ivy League grad rather than a White Ivy League grad on your board does not.

Same logic applies regarding ICE contracts. Talking about how great immigrants are costs you nothing. But refusing to do business with alphabet agencies that terrorize and inhumanely interns them impacts your bottom line.

People love to harp about how corporations are amoral and are only obligated to follow the law and create value for their shareholders. If you adopt this worldview then don’t be surprised if companies start doing business with tyrants.

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#87

Question to the people who disapprove of this but who endorse the top down language policing as endorsed by Twitter Eng.: Why does this bother you and not that?

While I'm not them and can't answer for them, I wonder if they see a qualitative difference between a government who will come round to your house and vanish you from the face of the earth for saying things in private to your friends, and a private corporation not letting you use their tools.

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#88
post #3

Isn't it surprising that Microsoft, Apple, Google, Netflix, Blizzard and others don't express their deep regret and support the people of Hong Kong? If they really stood by their values they would act in the same way as they did by supporting the BLM movement. It's just another proof that they only did that to get press coverage for being "benevolent" and not because they genuinely supported the people. Disgraceful.

The companies' PR statements are innocuous for society at large and are at best just thermometers for the current political climate. I don't know why people expect huge corporations to have good hearts and enact political change by themselves; that is on us.

I don’t really think they reflect the current climate. Many of those who are silent don’t believe in these ‘campaigns’

Re: Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves

#89
post #63
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think wanting black people to not get regularly murdered by the police is marxism, per se. Neither is being against celebrating slavers etc. Claiming the CCP and BLM are on the same page would be comical if I wasn't so sure you were serious.

It's traditional to label any left-wing movement in the US as "Marxist", regardless of the actual content of its views, simply because that's an effective thought-terminating cliche for the rightwing audience. Nobody cares about the historical analysis. The intent is always the same; in this case, to make it clear that if the police aren't allowed to murder people in the street without repercussions, America will imm…

If one is into black humour, it's amusing that one can find actual slavers arguing that if people were allowed to call for Abolition without repercussions, America would become a communist dictatorship.

(I went wait what at first, but I guess the communists were already a thing in the 1830's, so it makes sense educated people would've been familiar with them)

https://docsouth.unc.edu/southlit/hundley/hundley.html#hund7

> "Now, as every well-informed person knows, the fact is indisputable, and has often been boasted of by the infidel press, that anti-slavery sentiments were first propagated by the ultra socialists and communists--those miserable sans culottes, who, during the memorable French Revolution, raised the cry of Liberté, Fraternité et Egalité, and in the madness of their drunken folly enthroned a nude harlot in the Temple of Justice as the goddess Reason, the object of their admiration and worship. At that time England and Massachusetts were virtuously engaged in supplying the slave-marts of the world with cargoes fresh from Guinea and Loango, and our Northern divines had not the least suspicion that the Bible condemned slavery. But, sansculotteism being quelled in France, soon found a foothold in Exeter Hall, and thence spread to the United States. For a long time the clergy resisted the storm of radical ideas, but being only men like the rest of us, and having an eye to benefices, calls, surprise-parties, and the like, as well as "itching ears" to catch the sweet voices of the rabble, they have at last almost surrendered in a body in the Free States, and now seek to lead in the new crusade ..."

> " Already, we repeat, this terrible question is being mooted in secret conclave; and should the time ever come when it shall be mooted openly--when loudmouthed and earnest men, fresh from the people, shall bestride Faneuil Hall, bawling for an equal and exact distribution to every mechanic of whatever craft, to every operative of whatever mills, to every laborer of whatever grade--bawling, we say, for an equal and exact distribution to the workmen of the net proceeds of their combined labor; and denouncing in the same breath pampered capitalists, as so many lordlings growing rich on the earnings of the moiling and toiling poor, reaping where they have not sown, and gathering where they have not scattered; upon what plausible pretext will you, Sir, then seek to gainsay them? You will have none. Dumb and quaking with fear you would be constrained to acquiesce in their logic; for they would only use in their own behalf the identical arguments you have assiduously tried to impress upon their minds for ten years and more, in order to persuade them to interfere in the affairs of their neighbors."

^F "socialist" for more of the sort. Hundley would've hated 140 characters.

These days the french have moved on; they're even going for Liberté, Sororité et Egalité. What horror! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls_nVMZK3rM

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